The smallest, yet best MIDI arranger/sequencer?

[Midiot]

Hi, as my name suggests, I am almost phobic about understanding midi, all those letters and numbers quoted by musical electricians are completely impenetrable to me! Having said that, I have used midi for over twenty years, but in its most basic form. I play for dancing, so all I need is bass guitar on the bass buttons, piano on chords and treble, nothing more, nothing less. I started with a Yamaha QY20 (there's me quoting letters and numbers!) and made passable midi noises come out, but then upgraded to a Roland RA90, as the pipe organ option was handy for playing in church. My working box is a fully loaded Fisitalia 96 bass professional PA, MusicTech midi and Sennheiser mics, which is superb, but weighs a ton, and is cumbersome switching between instruments (I play fiddle and guitar, as well). I have never attempted any arranging and don't use the auto drum kit.

However, I bought a superb 1960s Hohner Concerto 72 bass in a 48 bass body twenty odd years ago, which has an excellent tone, and I recently had John Barlow fit his ELMAT system to it, which I'm very pleased with. On John's advice, I rigged up a WIDI Master, powered by a mobile phone battery, and another plugged in to the RA90 and so have a totally wireless midi system on a light and portable accordion. This is ideal for me to do sound checks the audience side of the PA whilst the rest of the band remain in position.

But it also gives me the possibility of busking with midi, so I now finally get to the point; What is the considered opinion of the midi experts on the forum as to which is the smallest and most portable sequencer/arranger that will give me the most natural sounding bass guitar and grand piano? Battery operated would be ideal, to sit on top of a small busking speaker.

Thanks in advance for your ideas.

All the best
Greg

 

[Airy]

Hi @Midiot ,
sorry to bother you with tech-vocabulary…

To me it seems that you would want a „sound module“ not an „arranger / sequencer“. But read my (self made) definitions below to check if I may be right.

A „sound module“ is a device which takes a MIDI signal (mostly note values) and then plays back certain internal sounds.

Sound modules which are leaning towards vastly modifyable artificial sounds are often called „synthesizer“ because they synthesize their sounds electronically from ground up. You probably don’t want these.

Sound modules which are more leaning towards emulation of existing sounds / instruments are often called „expander“ because they expand your options of instrumentation. Most modern expanders use prerecorded (sampled) sounds and may sound very similar to the original instruments. Some have a huge variety of factory sounds installed, from classic to pop to folkloric instruments, others are more specialized in a certain type of instrument category like keyboards or percussion.

Technically these sound modules can be built very small, because there are only a few chips necessary. The quality mostly depends on the quality of the prerecorded and preprocessed sounds. But they have to be bigger if the user wants knobs and dials and displays to either configure the device or modify the sounds without the need of an extra computer.

An “arranger” or “sequencer” on the other hand is a device which may also include a “sound module” and therefore produces sounds. But it is much more because it helps you to organize and recall certain sound sets to certain songs, helps you to switch sounds within a song in a organized way (verse, chorus, bridge, etc), and may even support you with an autonomously playing (virtual) background band including drums / rhythm.

So, what are your demands?

Your former Yamaha QY20 I would consider a “sequencer” with an avarage quality alround sound module. Why did it not fit your needs?

How is your attitude towards portable computers like tablets (eg. Apple iPad)? There should be a growing supply on software for playback / comping demands as well as emulating real instruments.

 

[Giovanni]

Hi, as my name suggests, I am almost phobic about understanding midi, all those letters and numbers quoted by musical electricians are completely impenetrable to me! Having said that, I have used midi for over twenty years, but in its most basic form. I play for dancing, so all I need is bass guitar on the bass buttons, piano on chords and treble, nothing more, nothing less. I started with a Yamaha QY20 (there's me quoting letters and numbers!) and made passable midi noises come out, but then upgraded to a Roland RA90, as the pipe organ option was handy for playing in church. My working box is a fully loaded Fisitalia 96 bass professional PA, MusicTech midi and Sennheiser mics, which is superb, but weighs a ton, and is cumbersome switching between instruments (I play fiddle and guitar, as well). I have never attempted any arranging and don't use the auto drum kit.

However, I bought a superb 1960s Hohner Concerto 72 bass in a 48 bass body twenty odd years ago, which has an excellent tone, and I recently had John Barlow fit his ELMAT system to it, which I'm very pleased with. On John's advice, I rigged up a WIDI Master, powered by a mobile phone battery, and another plugged in to the RA90 and so have a totally wireless midi system on a light and portable accordion. This is ideal for me to do sound checks the audience side of the PA whilst the rest of the band remain in position.

But it also gives me the possibility of busking with midi, so I now finally get to the point; What is the considered opinion of the midi experts on the forum as to which is the smallest and most portable sequencer/arranger that will give me the most natural sounding bass guitar and grand piano? Battery operated would be ideal, to sit on top of a small busking speaker.

Thanks in advance for your ideas.

All the best
Greg

Johns Suriname is Farlow he is wizard when it comes electronic repairs and midi systems . His father was also a good accordionist. Giovanni

 

[pentaprism]

Disclaimer: "I'm no expert in MIDI arranger/sequencer. In fact, I'm no expert in anything at all."

I have and like Roland BK7m. It is compact, especially compared to Roland RA90 which I once had, and is feature-rich.

The best thing I like about it is that it can be controlled by a 7-switch (actually 8-switch) foot pedal.

It is not designed to be battery-operated; but that does not prevent it being powered by a good battery pack.

The problem is that Roland for some reason discontinued it, and it is very difficult to find.

 

[Walker]

I am no expert in midi sound modules. I am the very opposite, quite inexpert in midi applications - though I have used a few simple modules regularly for 25+ years (a very elderly Korg module and Watkins Midi Partner etc). I have always looked for the simplest midi solutions - just using it for reinforcing my accordion bass/chords (with a midi piano and bass sound) to accompany Scottish tunes on acoustic accordion.

I have heard some of the piano, bass and guitar sounds on the V3 triangle modules. I like their natural sounds, especially the grand pianos. Really lovely to my ear.

However, I have noticed another product on the market called midirig. I know nothing about it, other than it looks very compact and simple to use. Has anyone got experience of this little sound module...

Products - MidiRig.com

Products

midirig.com

At one time I thought Ketron's compact SD4 was quite okay. Never bought one though, some sounds were great, others... less so.

 

[Valski]

Hello Greg,

Welcome, you're in good company because I also get confused with the terminology. I own a Roland Fr8x and the BK-7m plus the FC-7 foot controller. They're all wonderful, but to be honest far too many pieces to carry to a gig on most occasions. Luckily the Fr8x accordion can play back backing tracks that I've recorded on the Bk7m. It's wonderful because the accordion is all that I need to carry, plus a USB key with my recordings. The only disadvantage is that the songs have to be played exactly the same way each time.

I was under the impression that other manufacturers also have a similar play back function including Musictech. Perhaps this might work for you. I was skeptical until I started using this function and am now very pleased.

 

[Midiot]

Johns Suriname is Farlow he is wizard when it comes electronic repairs and midi systems . His father was also a good accordionist. Giovanni

Hi Giovanni, yes, John told me his father was a whizz on the accordion, but I was amazed that John himself, being a superb engineer, does not actually play the instrument.

 

[Midiot]

Hi @Midiot ,
sorry to bother you with tech-vocabulary…

To me it seems that you would want a „sound module“ not an „arranger / sequencer“. But read my (self made) definitions below to check if I may be right.

A „sound module“ is a device which takes a MIDI signal (mostly note values) and then plays back certain internal sounds.

Sound modules which are leaning towards vastly modifyable artificial sounds are often called „synthesizer“ because they synthesize their sounds electronically from ground up. You probably don’t want these.

Sound modules which are more leaning towards emulation of existing sounds / instruments are often called „expander“ because they expand your options of instrumentation. Most modern expanders use prerecorded (sampled) sounds and may sound very similar to the original instruments. Some have a huge variety of factory sounds installed, from classic to pop to folkloric instruments, others are more specialized in a certain type of instrument category like keyboards or percussion.

Technically these sound modules can be built very small, because there are only a few chips necessary. The quality mostly depends on the quality of the prerecorded and preprocessed sounds. But they have to be bigger if the user wants knobs and dials and displays to either configure the device or modify the sounds without the need of an extra computer.

An “arranger” or “sequencer” on the other hand is a device which may also include a “sound module” and therefore produces sounds. But it is much more because it helps you to organize and recall certain sound sets to certain songs, helps you to switch sounds within a song in a organized way (verse, chorus, bridge, etc), and may even support you with an autonomously playing (virtual) background band including drums / rhythm.

So, what are your demands?

Your former Yamaha QY20 I would consider a “sequencer” with an avarage quality alround sound module. Why did it not fit your needs?

How is your attitude towards portable computers like tablets (eg. Apple iPad)? There should be a growing supply on software for playback / comping demands as well as emulating real instruments.

Hi Airy, thank you for that excellent and well considered reply, which I greatly appreciate. You have exposed my ignorance still further, because it is so long ago that I used the QY20, and now its backup battery has failed I cannot revisit it, and I can't remember how it sounded! Is there maybe an updated version of the QY20 that is the same size but has good bass guitar and piano sounds?

Oh, and I am even bigger dunce with computers, so don't wish to go down that route if I can stay simple.

 

[Giovanni]

Hi Giovanni, yes, John told me his father was a whizz on the accordion, but I was amazed that John himself, being a superb engineer, does not actually play the instrument.

Yes it surprised me also ..........but he is without doubt a great guy with his midi knowledge and a kind and helpful man .
If I had any midi electronic problems he would be the person I'd contact .

 

[Airy]

Is there maybe an updated version of the QY20 that is the same size but has good bass guitar and piano sounds?

QY20 = 1992
QY70 = 1994
Qy100 = 2000
But don't take this as a recommendation! We have 2022 today and music electronics, especially the fidelity of sounds have improved vastly over the years. (Although sometimes an instrument sounding unnatural on its own may shine in an arrangement or at live shows with a noisy audience or a bad PA.) And as I see from the other posts and from the catalogues of the music stores there are certain devices which are especially "made for gig(g)ing" which may have certain features making them easier to understand/handle and/or more reliable in live situations.

And don't feel ashamed to not speak "MIDI engeneering language". It was not invented to communicate with musicians ;-)
I whish you luck....

 

[Chris Laarman]

Hi Airy, thank you for that excellent and well considered reply, which I greatly appreciate. You have exposed my ignorance still further, because it is so long ago that I used the QY20, and now its backup battery has failed I cannot revisit it, and I can't remember how it sounded! Is there maybe an updated version of the QY20 that is the same size but has good bass guitar and piano sounds?

Oh, and I am even bigger dunce with computers, so don't wish to go down that route if I can stay simple.

(Sorry for the delay in reacting.) - Are you aware that current smartphones (and tablets) are capable audio- and MIDI-devices?

Notably the Apple ones have "always" been good at MIDI, and the "GarageBand" sequencer is included in the purchase. - You wouldn't need a device with even the fitting for a SIM-card, even an iPod Touch would do. Android devices seem to have caught op, but I'm using mine less and less. YMMV!

 

[losthobos]

@Midiot ..please tell me IMMEDIATELY about the WIDI thing, John at elmat has fitted one of my boxes with his elmat system...superb but the leads are annoying me ...how many WIDI devices do I need..? I guess one for my sound module and one for the accordion...please any advice gratefully received...thanks Terry

 

[Midiot]

Hi Terry, no worries. Yup, you’re right, you need two. The module end uses the plug in power module, but the accordion end does not, as you use the mobile battery plugged into the micro port to power it. It pairs simply, and the whole thing is frankly amazing. John told me which power lead I needed for the phone battery, so I was sure it was right. Enjoy!

 

[Midiot]

(Sorry for the delay in reacting.) - Are you aware that current smartphones (and tablets) are capable audio- and MIDI-devices?

Notably the Apple ones have "always" been good at MIDI, and the "GarageBand" sequencer is included in the purchase. - You wouldn't need a device with even the fitting for a SIM-card, even an iPod Touch would do. Android devices seem to have caught op, but I'm using mine less and less. YMMV!

Hi Chris, no, I didn’t know that, and I’m amazed, as I’m tapping this message out on an iPhone. I dabbled with GarageBand a few years ago, but didn’t get too far, so I’ll look into it again pronto.

 

[Midiot]

QY20 = 1992
QY70 = 1994
Qy100 = 2000
But don't take this as a recommendation! We have 2022 today and music electronics, especially the fidelity of sounds have improved vastly over the years. (Although sometimes an instrument sounding unnatural on its own may shine in an arrangement or at live shows with a noisy audience or a bad PA.) And as I see from the other posts and from the catalogues of the music stores there are certain devices which are especially "made for gig(g)ing" which may have certain features making them easier to understand/handle and/or more reliable in live situations.

And don't feel ashamed to not speak "MIDI engeneering language". It was not invented to communicate with musicians ;-)
I whish you luck....

That made me smile, Airy, about electricians code being alien to musicians.
Thank you for the timeline, which I was unaware of, or the subsequent QY models. But I guess the game has moved on so far now that I should investigate what is possible on this iPhone first, before shelling out for something like MidiRig.

Also, I know exactly what you mean about the synthetic sound blending in perfectly with a fast live acoustic performance, and I get that from the RA90.

 

[Chris Laarman]

Hi Chris, no, I didn’t know that, and I’m amazed, as I’m tapping this message out on an iPhone. I dabbled with GarageBand a few years ago, but didn’t get too far, so I’ll look into it again pronto.

On the topics of sequencer and arranger:

Sequencers seem divided in either "linear" or "pattern-based". That's a rather fundamental choice.

Arrangers: I used to be an avid user of the Band-in-a-Box software. There is some BiaB player for iOS, but I haven't paid too much attention. There are similar apps for iOS, but it's hard to beat BiaB. On the other hand, Jos Maas makes software centered around the ubiquitious Yamaha PSR-styles.

On both: be aware that the sounds are independent from the "piano roll" of commands that MIDI amounts to. So you may end up using several pieces of soft- and hardware.

Oh yes: there are several ways to connect iOS devices to other MIDI gear. However, in the case of Bluetooth, be aware that you'll need a (free) "driver" app.

Me, I'm not (yet?) an accordionist, but I have both a big real one and a Roland FR-1xb.
Following some thread on (I think) this forum, I have a V3 Sonority XXL coming. However, its competitor Ketron SD1000 features some audio loops. (I didn't study their other products.)

For an encore: MIDI is a protocol: a command set and an interface. Skip the interface, but think of the commands. It's like ordering tea: what you get will be almost the same, but not exactly. (That is where your bass and grand piano come in.) And for music: the basic commands are Note On and Note Off. Simplified: the note mentioned in the Note On command will resound until a Note Off command bas been received.

 

[JerryPH]

@Midiot ..please tell me IMMEDIATELY about the WIDI thing, John at elmat has fitted one of my boxes with his elmat system...superb but the leads are annoying me ...how many WIDI devices do I need..? I guess one for my sound module and one for the accordion...please any advice gratefully received...thanks

WIDI Master - Wireless MIDI Adapter via Bluetooth by CME

WIDI Master is your virtual MIDI cable. Now you can connect all your MIDI devices - without computers - without cables - with WIDI Master!

www.cme-pro.com

All you need to know about the WIDI master, I use 2 in my wireless setup…. One in the 8X and one in the BK7m.

 

[losthobos]

Thanks @Midiot @JerryPH
Been in touch with John at Elmat and he says I need to add battery case into accordion to be good to go...so more likely I'll take my Elka over to him and have that midied too but set up from day one for WIDI system
Looks like the thing I'd wanted all along...hate playing with a pile of spaghetti on my lap ...

 

[Beemer]

Hi, as my name suggests, I am almost phobic about understanding midi, all those letters and numbers quoted by musical electricians are completely impenetrable to me! Having said that, I have used midi for over twenty years, but in its most basic form. I play for dancing, so all I need is bass guitar on the bass buttons, piano on chords and treble, nothing more, nothing less. I started with a Yamaha QY20 (there's me quoting letters and numbers!) and made passable midi noises come out, but then upgraded to a Roland RA90, as the pipe organ option was handy for playing in church. My working box is a fully loaded Fisitalia 96 bass professional PA, MusicTech midi and Sennheiser mics, which is superb, but weighs a ton, and is cumbersome switching between instruments (I play fiddle and guitar, as well). I have never attempted any arranging and don't use the auto drum kit.

However, I bought a superb 1960s Hohner Concerto 72 bass in a 48 bass body twenty odd years ago, which has an excellent tone, and I recently had John Barlow fit his ELMAT system to it, which I'm very pleased with. On John's advice, I rigged up a WIDI Master, powered by a mobile phone battery, and another plugged in to the RA90 and so have a totally wireless midi system on a light and portable accordion. This is ideal for me to do sound checks the audience side of the PA whilst the rest of the band remain in position.

But it also gives me the possibility of busking with midi, so I now finally get to the point; What is the considered opinion of the midi experts on the forum as to which is the smallest and most portable sequencer/arranger that will give me the most natural sounding bass guitar and grand piano? Battery operated would be ideal, to sit on top of a small busking speaker.

Thanks in advance for your ideas.

All the best
Greg

I suggest to contact Colin at accordions direct Admin@accordionsdirect.
Also see this item that he manufactures:

MidiRig pocket sound module Now with free UK shipping

new MidiRig pocket sound module accordion MIDI expander

scotlandaccordions.co.uk

They also manufacture radio kits compatible with midi. I bought my Scandalli from them.
Ian

 

[Squeezeplay]

I have John’s Elmat system in 2 of my boxes, both wireless, it needs a little bit of “ programming “ every time you turn it on, about five seconds worth, BUT, it works flawlessly , works for many hours on a small battery. He sent parts for me to convert my LMMM Hohner bass side, and guided me through installation. It worked well, and I decided to try a full conversion on a Chinese box I have…. It works flawlessly, is totally wireless, and I love it ! I use the WIDI system for wireless midi and a Ketron X-4 arranger, which has some really decent sounds, and the old X-4 arranger supplies power for the receiver end of the widi , which not all arrangers do,, Combine this with an expression pedal on the X-4, and you have a decent set up. I made the X-4 battery powered, ( very simple job) use a battery powered speaker, and I can play a 5 hour job, with lots left over. Add a stand for the Ketron, and a stool, you are set.