The World of Russian Bayans (CBA)

[Auser]

Hi all

After debating for a long time about the right pick of an accordion for myself, I`ve reached some conclusions, including not to be too afraid of size and even weight.
Following that, I rediscovered a type of instrument which I rejected in the past because of it`s weight :
The Russian Bayan.

They sound different, clear treble, hardcore bass, seem to be very responsive, consume less air...
I especially like the organ like sound, and how Baroque music sounds on it :




I think it`s unmatched when playing classic music.
Question is, what happens when you try to play something to make a `warm` atmosphere, these instruments sound quite cold and even a folk tune might sound too technical :



So would I still be able to play `warm` with it ?

 

[JerryPH]

Well, dont mention that to this group who play a couple of Pigini Bayans :

<YOUTUBE id=T6Lv2BRCWyU url=></YOUTUBE>

 

[debra]

There is no reason to reject a Russian Bayan because of its weight. new ones are not heavier (nor lighter) than an Italian equivalent. There are clear differences in sound, which also vary a bit between brands. The three examples you show of the baroque music are all played on a Jupiter bayan. Not all bayans sound exactly like that.
One of my favorite sound clips is:
<YOUTUBE id=iEj8_fbXixc t=14 url=></YOUTUBE> (Alexander Skliarov on AKKO bayan)
Definitely not cold. There is a bit of a different balance between the reeds in cassotto and those outside, so when you play MH it sounds sharper than on for instance a Bugari. But of course you can play LM one octave higher for a warmer sound (and you have plenty of notes anyway). Also, because of the almost dry tuning (a Bayan has 4 cents tremolo by default) bayan players often use MM and MMH and LMMH where I would use M, MH and LMH, and that adds to that cold sound you observe.
My AKKO Bayan (model Super de Luxe) is listed at 13.9kg (real weight is always a bit more than whats listed, just like with Italian boxes) So it is not super heavy. This weight is identical to the weight listed for a Bugari Bayan Prime (which will cost more than twice of what the AKKO costs).

And to Jerry: The Moscow Night Group clip you showed has one player on an AKKO accordion and the other one on a Bugari. What about the Piginis you refer to??? (The clip would not have sounded half as nice to me had it been played on Pigini, but that is personal preference.)

 

[JerryPH]

And to Jerry: The Moscow Night Group clip you showed has one player on an AKKO accordion and the other one on a Bugari. What about the Piginis you refer to??? (The clip would not have sounded have as nice to me had it been played on Pigini, but that is personal preference.)

I wasnt able to find in time, Ill see if I can find it tonight (rushing off to work!).

 

[yc360]

All beautiful sound! Guess all major makers can make top notch boxes. Just matter of the budget {} :ch

 

[debra]

All beautiful sound! Guess all major makers can make top notch boxes. Just matter of the budget {} :ch

That is the main point! People sometimes ask me Is a X a good accordion? (where X can be Bugari, Pigini, Ballone Burini, Victoria, Borsini, Piermaria, Jupiter, AKKO, or any other brand you can imagine)
The answer is always that it depends a lot on which model they are talking about.
The Moscow Night Group video is truly interesting for me as it helps me explain the move I made from Bugari to AKKO. I very much like the sound of the Bugari Artist Cassotto models and when I was on the lookout for a really good CBA convertor instrument that could compete with it (yet was a bit more affordable) I ended up with AKKO. The sound of the two blends very well in this video.

 

[TomBR]

In talking about these impressive instruments I'd be interested in any comments along the way about true bayans in C system - is that what you had built Paul?
Tom

 

[debra]

In talking about these impressive instruments Id be interested in any comments along the way about true bayans in C system - is that what you had built Paul?
Tom

I do indeed have a C system AKKO super de luxe model. (That like the super but a bit lighter and with one extra chin switch.) The Russians have focused for a long time on producing a lot of volume, mainly from the era where performances were most often done in large rooms without any amplification. By now the Italians have caught up and the small Bugari 540/ARS/C I have is also very loud, and clearly louder than a similar instrument from 10 years ago.
I have played on a Pigini Sirius Bayan and that is actually very similar (well copied I would say) to a Russian Bayan. The main difference is in the reeds / reed plates. The Italians are beginning to discover the advantages of large reed plates with many reeds and are starting to use them on the bass side of accordions. A Russian bayan has them for all the reeds. That gives easier access to the reeds for tuning but when a reed breaks it is much harder to fix. I hope that never happens to me...
Apart from the keyboard and the bass mechanism that are C system there is nothing internally different between a C system and B system bayan.

 

[Auser]

The Russians have focused for a long time on producing a lot of volume, mainly from the era where performances were most often done in large rooms without any amplification. By now the Italians have caught up and the small Bugari 540/ARS/C I have is also very loud, and clearly louder than a similar instrument from 10 years ago.

After checking prices and models I`ve reached the conclusion that the really good (used) Russian Bayans aren`t significantly cheaper than Italian ones, and might be even more expensive.
The best model of Jupiter : Lux costs 8,000 euros new, and possible to find for 5,000 euros - used about 5 years old.
Drops 40 % in price from new to used.

Now there`s a Bugari in the UK :
http://craigbradley.co.uk/product/bugari-free-bass-converter-accordion/[/url]
I think it`s an Artist 580 for 5,400 euros, only 400 euros more, while a new one costs about 11,000 euros.
Drops ~50% in price from new to old.
In actual figures the difference in the drops is very significant - 3,000 EUR v.s. 6,000 EUR.

So basically, you can buy them `used` for the same price.
I Bradley`s site he states that 2 plates on the bass side are Russian style. From that I can figure that the Bugari is more balanced, as it can have both the strong & low Russian bass, and also the gentler ones.
I`d say that for folk and Balkan, I`d prefer the Bugari :


But what about classic music, the Baroque examples I linked to above, are perfect on a Jupiter. I think It`d sound too `Tremollic` on a Bugari.

 

[Auser]

Here`s an example of Baroque Music on the very same instrument :

<YOUTUBE id=2WZsNZrbt6w url=></YOUTUBE>

 

[debra]

...
After checking prices and models I`ve reached the conclusion that the really good (used) Russian Bayans aren`t significantly cheaper than Italian ones, and might be even more expensive.
The best model of Jupiter : Lux costs 8,000 euros new, and possible to find for 5,000 euros - used about 5 years old.
Drops 40 % in price from new to used.

Now there`s a Bugari in the UK :
http://craigbradley.co.uk/product/bugari-free-bass-converter-accordion/[/url]
I think it`s an Artist 580 for 5,400 euros, only 400 euros more, while a new one costs about 11,000 euros.
Drops ~50% in price from new to old.
In actual figures the difference in the drops is very significant - 3,000 EUR v.s. 6,000 EUR.
...

The Bugari 580/ARS/C is a very nice instrument indeed. Note that the old ones (like the one in the ad) have 58 notes (G to E) and new ones have 61 notes (G to G). On the bass side they are 55 notes (E to A#). The old ones were called Bayan by Bugari but the new ones are not. The Bayan series by Bugari is now a more expensive series. In my (now defunct) ensemble in Antwerp we had a 580 player so I know that type of instrument well.
The 580 does not fully compare to the Jupiter Lux which has 64 notes (E to G) and 58 bass notes (E to C#).
The ad also shows the inside of the 580 so you can see the Italian style reeds, single rivets even on the lowest notes on the right-hand side, the reeds weighed down quite heavily which isnt so good for volume and response, but thats what Italians do and not a point of criticism for just the 580 or even Bugari.

An Italian Bayan with 64 notes (RH) and 58 bass notes (LH) is still quite a bit more expensive than a Russian Bayan, especially new, maybe somewhat less so on the used market which unfortunately (for me) is 99% B system, so not really helpful for a C system player.

Anyone who thinks that the Italians have caught up in sound with the Russians by using multi-reed plates for the bass should really watch this video:
<YOUTUBE id=GhTLYNjxRYE url=></YOUTUBE>
In this video the large multi-reed plates for the bass of a Vignoni accordion are replaced by the type used in a Jupiter. (Never mind the russian explanation you might not understand.) The video not only shows the process but also has a sound comparison of the original Vignoni bass and then the Vignoni with Jupiter bass. Despite the Vignoni having a winkelbass construction to improve the sound and no longer having that after installing the larger Jupiter reeds the response and sound with the Jupiter reeds is just so much better...

 

[JerryPH]

The thing that impresssed me most was how fast the Bayan reeds responded, there was no audible delay between pressing and hearing the note. On the Vignoni reeds... wow, that was almost unusable! Those reeds just of themselves needed a lot of work.

 

[debra]

The thing that impresssed me most was how fast the Bayan reeds responded, there was no audible delay between pressing and hearing the note. On the Vignoni reeds... wow, that was almost unusable! Those reeds just of themselves needed a lot of work.

Bayan reeds are simply a completely different kind of animal than accordion reeds. Just putting multiple reeds on a large reed plate does not make them bayan reeds. It has to do with size, with small tolerances (a bayan does not play below 10 degrees centigrade because the aluminum reed plates shrink more than the steel reeds), and with a tougher type of steel.
Sadly tuning a bayan can be a bit of a nightmare. Forget about a tuning table. Forget about just putting half the accordion on a loose bellow (with rubber sealing). None of this works. The same note, not just the lowest, but say notes around A3 (220Hz), can easily give a 5 cent difference between everything in the accordion versus everything in the accordions and the bellows screws (used instead of pins) inserted *and tightened*, and the accordion back in the playing position (not resting on its feed). There is nothing short than having everything completely back together that works for checking the effect of a small adjustment. It makes for a very laborious process. The only thing that kind-of eases the task is that the reed plates are clamped on rather than with wax. Position is also very critical as there is absolutely zero room to spare (or a reed with hit the side wall of the resonance chamber or the valve next to it will hit the side wall of the resonance chamber). The reeds, reed plates and reed blocks are more of a precision job than on an accordion.

 

[Auser]

The thing that impresssed me most was how fast the Bayan reeds responded, there was no audible delay between pressing and hearing the note. On the Vignoni reeds... wow, that was almost unusable! Those reeds just of themselves needed a lot of work.

I don`t know what`s the extent of the difference, but the Russians say it also has an `incomparable` advantage in air consumption - that is the full plate reeds over the `pieced` ones.

The problem is, in my opinion that the Russian bass lacks the gentler tones, and sound always too formal and powerful, sometimes you just want a mild accompaniment.

 

[Auser]

In this video the large multi-reed plates for the bass of a Vignoni accordion are replaced by the type used in a Jupiter. (Never mind the russian explanation you might not understand.)

Actually it`s one of my mother-tongue languages(Russian).

Now I have another Free-Bass question I`ll post in a different topic, it`s related to Bugari and Zero Sette too.
Then I`ll come back here, as my personal `research` is progressing and I`ll need more info about the Russian Bayans too.

Thanks
And hope to see you people there,
giving some advice

 

[debra]

...
I don`t know what`s the extent of the difference, but the Russians say it also has an `incomparable` advantage in air consumption - that is the full plate reeds over the `pieced` ones.

The problem is, in my opinion that the Russian bass lacks the gentler tones, and sound always too formal and powerful, sometimes you just want a mild accompaniment.

The difference in air consumption is totally unrelated to using full plate reeds. The air consumption is entirely a function of size (i.e. surface area) of the reed (that has to move/pass/block) the air while vibrating and tight fit of the reed in the opening in the reed plate. Bayan reeds are larger and more rectangular, which means more usable surface, which is compensated by tougher steel to still vibrate at the same frequency. The fit of the reeds is so tight that some reeds start failing around 10 degrees centigrade already. The tight fit can also be heard in the high notes. On an accordion no valves are used on the highest notes, typically starting with C6 (A4 being 440Hz). On an accordion with Italian reeds you can hear the difference between the highest note that has a valve and the next one, because a slight hiss can be heard when there is no valve, and that hiss is the air being wasted through the non-playing reed. On a bayan this hiss is essentially absent. The air loss is so minute that when playing a chromatic scale going up I cannot hear the transition (which I happen to know is not at C6 on my instrument). So it really is the reeds and their tight fit that makes the bayan use less air for the same sound volume. Neither reed plates fitted with wax nor large multi-reed plates in a bayan lose any air due to the plates.

The bayan has base notes (lowest octave and a bit) that play in LM register and a switch allows to add two more reeds to give a 4-reed bass. The higher notes in the melody bass are all in LL register. Italian accordions have many more options in registers. So adding the Jupiter reeds to the Vignoni results in the best of both worlds: The strong and very responsive low reeds are fitted but all lighter registers are still available. As accompaniment the stradella chords on my AKKO are actually gentle and mild. And experienced bayan players who want a lighter accompaniment will do it all on melody bass, avoiding the deep strong base notes.