then again, how can we tell

[Ventura]

the first asian accordion's sold through Castlefidardo were bootlegged into Italy and marked
"made in Italy" by an unscrupulous famous old brand, they got caught pretty quickly, there
was a scandal of course, they continued to bring in Asian bodies but added Italian reeds
and for awhile the Govt. had serious restrictions on how they could mark and advertise
these mixed parent accordions..

as we know, the job of Lobbyists is to get Governments to water down such restrictions
over time and reduce oversight so as to allow a grey area that makes money for everyone but
keeps people out of Jail and scandals under the carpet

what exactly can they get away with today in Italy, and how can you tell ?

i mean, what is the apparent difference between a $2500 accordion and a $5000 accordion
from Specs and Pictures ? except one brand is $5000 one is not

is it that the body was milled in China as opposed to the body made in Italy
are they both allowed to be marked made in Italy if the final assembly, reeds, and finishing
are done in Italy ?

do they even need to finish the box here ?
or is swapping reeds and putting on a Nameplate quite enough now ?

we went through this here over a few decades in the Auto industry...
how much {percentage of parts and materials) did the Govt. get
lobbied down to and still allow a Chevy to say "Made in USA"

which Toyota turned to their advantage by proving one year that
Toyota's made in their USA factory had more USA sourced content than
the big 3 USA companies vehicles

just sayin'

don't know if anyone but Debra or Jim or SNav could even tell anymore

i still THINK i can tell, but mostly by touch and sound

makes you think though

 

[debra]

A more or less honest company will tell you where a product was designed and where it was built (assembled). Apple for instance does this, saying something like "Designed by Apple in California, Assembled in China". Many other companies are not so honest. General motors has owned the German Opel brand for decades, and over a decade ago they closed down the assembly plants in countries other than Germany and then started selling the American General Motors cars that were being assembled in Germany by Opel as "It's a German". What can you expect from such dishonest companies...
When I lived in New Jersey I once bought a used Dodge car, only to discover that it had an Audi engine (and like all Audi engines from that era it used quite a bit of oil). So yeah... how much in an American car is really American...

The best known old lies in the accordion industry probably come from Hohner that labeled virtually all their accordions as "Made in Germany" (with a few exceptions that said they were made in Switzerland, around WW2). But with the Morino (N and S series) they had the accordions made by Excelsior in Italy, and only did "some assembly" still in Germany, and then labeled the accordions as "Made in Germany". Some Hohner models also had register switches that were only used in Czech accordions... Only recently have they become a bit more honest, admitting that some of their accordions are made in Italy for Hohner. What they write on their accordions made in China I don't know as I refuse to even touch them.

Most accordions that are made in China (and most of them having Italian-sounding names like Scarlatti, Paganini, etc.) can be easily recognized by looking at the register switches. These accordions tend to have old Scandalli-style (treble) register switches. Some fakes with real Italian brand names are still easy to recognize because of silly errors, like putting a Bugari-style grille on an accordion that's labeled "Paolo Soprani".

To know for certain whether an accordion is made in China (or North Korea) versus Italy you really have to look inside, play and listen. I'm pretty certain that if you count parts you will find a majority of Chinese parts in Italian accordions, because almost all small parts are made in China. A real Italian accordion will have its case (treble and bass), bellows, reed blocks and reeds (reed plates and tongues) made in Italy, using either Swedish or German steel for reeds, springs and other steel mechanical parts. Since the case, reed blocks and reeds make up most of what determines the sound of an accordion a person with experienced ears will recognize the sound of an Italian accordion (in all its variations) and spot a Chinese one quite easily. For many not so experienced people the difference is hard to tell. The mechanical feel of the accordion may still be noticeable quite easily. (Many Chinese piano accordions for instance require more force to press the black keys than the white keys.) And over time Chinese springs may start failing, along with other parts...

 

[tcabot]

There's a general misconception that quality stuff can't be made in China. This couldn't be further away from the truth - the Chinese factories will make anything you want to any price (and quality) you want.
Having seem some exceptionally high quality stuff being made in China to order, I don't think they will have a problem in making an accordion as good or better than in Italy, Germany, Russia, [insert any other country]. Of course, when all is said and done, the cost won't be that much less than if it was built built anywhere else, which means that western wholesalers and retailers are not getting a prime return on these products.

The problem comes from simple greed. An "entrepreneur" would come to a Chinese factory, asking them to build a £100 product for £10, which they can do by cutting every corner imaginable. The same "entrepreneur" will then put a 200% mark-up and shift it to a western retailer, who will also put a 200% mark-up. Add import duties & other taxes, etc plus some aggressive marketing and you end up with a £10 imitation being sold for £80 and marketed to poorly informed Joes as a value-for money alternative to the quality £100 product.

So whatever you do, don't blame Chinese factories and don't assume their incompetence. Blame your local retailer for 200-300% mark-ups, blame your favourite brand for cost-cutting by outsourcing and not investing into R&D, staff training & retention, blame your collective self for hunting for bargain basement deals, etc.
I think the question should be not about where stuff is made, and what badge goes on it, but rather why do brands try to cut costs in half by poorly executed outsourcing and then try to shift low quality items for quality product.

The answer is (almost always) simple greed.
The solution would be to boycott such manufacturers when they try to shaft their customers, but most of us are just too much of a sucker for a bargain, and I've been guilty of this myself on multiple occasions.

 

[debra]

There's a general misconception that quality stuff can't be made in China. This couldn't be further away from the truth - the Chinese factories will make anything you want to any price (and quality) you want.
...

Many perfectly good accordion parts and materials come from China and are used in Italian accordions.
The main problem with attempts to make good accordions in China (for instance in the Hohner factory in China) is the quality of the Chinese steel.
Chinese reeds are not very good because the steel isn't very good (not strong, springy and durable enough) and springs tend to break because the steel isn't good enough. Hohner will sell you German-made springs to replace the ones in the Chinese-made accordions, so they know about the problem with the Chinese steel. Greed is the main factor why they don't use better (German) steel in the accordions they make in China.

Greed is a serious problem in the western economy, independent of possible outsourcing to China or other countries. If only we started refusing to buy bad or mediocre products at too high prices... but there is also consumer greed in wanting too much stuff we don't actually need, and wanting to pay too little for it as well.

In the accordion world prices of accordions are mainly driven by cost, supply and demand. I estimate that given two equal-quality accordions, one with and one without cassotto, the cassotto one will sell for about 150% of what the non-cassotto one sells for. But surely a cassotto accordion does not cost 150% of the non-cassotto one to make. People are willing to pay the premium for getting a cassotto, so that drives the prices up. The top of the line instruments easily cost 150% of the subtop, for just a slightly better quality in reeds and mechanics, and maybe a bit more care in finishing the accordion... but again to make he top of the line costs mayge 10 to 15% more than the subtop... The same holds for almost any type of product we can buy. China can make anything in any quality we desire, but if we want really good quality the price difference may not make it attractive in the western market... I'm sure that Chinese top accordion players can get very fine Chinese accordions.

 

[tcabot]

the quality of the Chinese steel

I'm afraid I have to disagree here - the steel will be what is spec'd by the manufacturer. Let's save an extra penny and opt for cheaper steel for reeds - exec bonuses won't pay themselves. Why "overpay" for quality springs, when the market will swallow cheap ones (and will pay for repairs once they break).

I own multiple Luban hand planes and a set of Luban chisels, some of which have seen close to a decade of regular use. From my personal experience, the Chinese T10 blade steel, for instance, easily competes (and in many cases performs better) with most brands sold over the counter in the UK. Of course, if you buy a £5 hand plane toy, then you only get to choose between blades made from Cheddar or Manchego. But quality can be there if the right order is placed.
Chisel wise, I'm comparing Luban against some of the best made today (Ashley Iles) and 70 years ago (Stormont), as well as the cheaper (but very good value) end of today's market (Narex). I'm a bit of a chisel slut.
But the point is - one of the world's biggest economies is perfectly capable of producing steel.

 

[Tom]

All well and good. But you know me, doubting Thomas. I'm not so concerned about the quality of the steel, I care about the music. I like traditional Italian music, especially what the youth are playing on the organettos. Ditto the Brazilians, the Cajun/zydecos and Tex Mex. Even John Kerry and some of the other Islands stuff you all post. Where is the "new" Chinese contemporary/traditional stuff? The young people just having fun with new, hip arrangements of traditional styles? Anyone got any? I'm sure it's gotta be there somewhere. I don't mean the virtuouistic/classical million notes a minute stuff, which I respect, fine, but I don't really like to watch. Someone on here's gotta be knowledgeable enough to help........

 

[Ventura]

well you would think..

i mean asia is so densely populated and anything that doesn't need
batteries and is affordable could be popular and enjoy wide use..

Asians clearly love music.. i mean for quite awhile Korea had
the most Piano's per family/per capita in the world

and China the most bicycles

and India the most umbrella's.. and Bollywood dance songs at the end of Movies

but yeah all we might hear over here is those flute kinda songs
or the Koto and other string kinda instruments from China..

i do wonder if they have a lot of 2 and 3 reed boxes of some kind
widely distributed in the rural areas and i wonder what they play on them

 

[Tom]

And Americans the most guns? Sad. Accordions would be better these days.

 

[debra]

I'm afraid I have to disagree here - the steel will be what is spec'd by the manufacturer. Let's save an extra penny and opt for cheaper steel for reeds - exec bonuses won't pay themselves. Why "overpay" for quality springs, when the market will swallow cheap ones (and will pay for repairs once they break).

...

You could well be right. So it's just bad Chinese steel used for making reeds and springs for accordions then... Save a penny and do not care about the customer... It's all so common, all around the world...

 

[John Doe]

Since China has been able to craft a nuclear submarine, launch satellites, and is working on a moon mission any notions that Chinese technology and manufacturing "can't do it" strikes me as a bit naïve.

That they also make a large quantities of as cheap as possible "give the customer what they pay for"- the customers being the importers and middlemen vice the end consumers- is not at all surprising nor out of step with Western production.

There's a lot of cheap rubbish (actually that ought to be pricey rubbish...) out there made in the USA, Italy, and the rest of the western world.

The mythic "Italian" or "German" accordions of lore require materials... but mainly many manhours of skilled labor working under conditions which would cause OSHA (US gov industrial safety buffalo squad) inspectors to light up like Christmas trees which means that you can feel free to build them in the old time way. Many portions of the production are difficult to automate, and creating the equipment to do so would be an immense investment without any real liklihood of a decent return. Price them fairly according to the cost to create and you can save money on parking outside the company store- because the checkout line is apt to be nonexistant given the prices you'd have to charge.

Bad news, but there it is (as I see it).*



*Strong words coming from the guy who can't evern read off the monitor screen...