Thumb-under technique on the accordion hurts

[xocd]

I studied piano for several years with a very technical teacher (Taubman Technique). I can play fast and legato scales on the piano without using the pedal. I am having a hard time translating this technque to the accordion because, I believe, the angle between the forearm and the keyboard is different on the two instruments. For example, when I play an ascending scale with the right hand on the piano my elbow is further to the right (towards the high notes) than my hand; the thumb can move under the palm and ahead of the fingers easily. On the accordion (unless one is playing the very lowest notes) I cannot obtain this angle (the elbow is higher than the hand.) The joint at the base of my thumb starts hurting when I try to use my piano technique. I end up "walking" the keyboard with my fingers (reminiscent of early keyboard technique, perhaps).

I wonder if this is purely an anatomical quirk of mine (natural lack of flexibility?) or perhaps the accordion technique is different. Is this something you have experienced? How do you play scales?

Thanks,

 

[Rhelsing]

I think that you are just not used to it. There is a bit of a difference, but I don't recall having any unique problems there when I started (played piano for 13 years before the accordion). I doubt your anatomy is the issue - just keep working on it. The muscle memory for some reason is not exactly the same - for example if I have a song memorized enough to play it basically with muscle memory kicking in - that muscle memory does not translate to a piano, I have to think it through. But the thumb goes under fine on scales. Try just relaxing an do scales for a few minutes every day. I think it will work itself out.

 

[Glenn]

I too don't think it will be an anatomical issue but rather experience and approach. I've played piano for more than 40 years before I tackled the accordion and didn't have a thumb ache problem. Legato playing on the piano is nothing to do with the pedal (which is for sustain and harmonic colour). You can achieve legato on the accordion without a pedal. You are right, the angle of the arm, wrist to the keyboard is different than that when playing the piano and changes faster as you move to higher notes. My advice is to keep your elbow well out from the body and above all "relax" the wrist and forearm. Also helps to tilt the body to the right as you play high notes as this allows the wrist to be more relaxed in that position. Don't try to be too technical at this stage. Unfortunately I don't know the Taubman technique so I cannot guess what the difference is to playing scales the way I do it (thumb under after 3rd finger in the majority of keys). Good luck and give us some feedback on how it's going.


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[debra]

Yes there is a difference, and especially fingering like 1 2 3 1 2 3 ... should be doable (ergonomically) but 1 2 3 4 1 2 3... is harder. Also, on a PA thumb under is easier on the low (frequency) notes than on high notes, which explains why PA players will sometimes do finger-over or under with other fingers than the thumb. On the piano the use of a finger over, even to go onto a black key, is typically frowned upon whereas on PA it is more common. So you really have to learn what works best for you and not stick religiously to piano fingering.

 

[donn]

I know nothing about this, but in the spirit of the internet here's a thought that popped into my head while reading this. The accordion is more like organ than piano - you don't have to deliver any kind of velocity or force, only the typically rather light exercise to get the key down to where the valve is open. While the physical postural differences won't go away, it may become less annoying as you get used to a lighter more relaxed hand.

 

[fjsys]

So I really have nothing to add other than a "Me too".

I have found that if I spend too much time playing scales I end up with an ache in the base joint of my thumb.

What I have found that helps is to not try so hard on the thumb under technique. Rather than trying the attack like a piano, keep it loose and hit the key lightly. I had one teacher tell me to try not to cross under, but glide across the top and not worry so much about the legato. (but I didn't really listen to that)

What seems to make it worse for me is spending too much time on scales (either one note, or two note) in one practice session. For me it ends up being that I can get about 2 minutes of scales before it starts to bug me and I know it is time to try something else.

Additionally I would recommend some type of hand stretching routine before you start. Mine includes grabbing my thumb and pulling it away from my index finger for a few seconds then releasing it.
The other thing that helps me is to do some massage on the webbing and if the pain gets bad I have found that a "chip clip" (spring clip used to hold bags closed) on the webbing next to the joint for 10 minutes will help a lot.

I have not really found any solution, other than relax and not do so many scales.
Good luck
Ben

 

[xocd]

... The accordion is more like organ than piano - you dont have to deliver any kind of velocity or force, only the typically rather light exercise to get the key down to where the valve is open.

The issue is independent of how hard I want to depress the keys. The crux of the problem is as follows: consider a highish C on the right hand; assume that you are playing the immediately lower B with your ring finger; say you now want to play C with the thumb; for a perfect legato one would like to be just touching C with the thumb while B is still depresssed with the ring finger. I find that this combination (play B with ring finger and lightly touch C with the thumb) hurts.

Perhaps I need to re-think legato.

Thanks,

 

[Glenn]

Indeed I think you are getting hung up on legato.
As Paul says, the accordion warrants differing fingering to the piano.
Go mad, move that thumb under the middle finger (no pun intended).


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[Pianoman1]

I am a piano teacher and found that the touch is different I would suggest forearm is straighter - fingers are very curved and the action is lighter - more like an electronic keyboard - I would also try moving the arm more as you play so that the energy comes as much from the arm as moving the fingers Please also bear in mind that pianos have different touches and adjustments are needed when moving from one piano to another and that accordion keyboards are also different.

 

[Zevy]

<FONT font=Garamond><SIZE size=125>My 2 cents:
The are big differences between the vertical and horizontal layouts of the two instruments, but I want to interject another idea. Unless I missed it, nobody mentioned the importance proper elbow and wrist posture in accordion execution. The forearm must be at a right angle with the keyboard (as much as possible), thereby letting the wrist and fingers play in a more relaxed position.
Try that and see how your playing and your runs in particular should improve.
Good luck!

 

[Pianoman1]

Totally agree with Z what I was trying to say

 

[xocd]

My 2 cents:. The forearm must be at a right angle with the keyboard (as much as possible), thereby letting the wrist and fingers play in a more relaxed position..
[/size][/font][/quote]

This advice is anatomically impossible. My forearm can be more or less perpendicular to the keyboard only on the lowest notes of the keyboard (43 key keyboard). The higher in pitch, the more the angle changes. Once I am playing on the C above middle-C, there is no way. :hb

Thanks,

 

[debra]

My 2 cents:. The forearm must be at a right angle with the keyboard (as much as possible), thereby letting the wrist and fingers play in a more relaxed position..
[/size][/font][/quote]

This advice is anatomically impossible. My forearm can be more or less perpendicular to the keyboard only on the lowest notes of the keyboard (43 key keyboard). The higher in pitch, the more the angle changes. Once I am playing on the C above middle-C, there is no way. :hb

Thanks,[/quote]
When this advice is anatomically impossible it means you are playing with the accordion too far to the (your) right. When you loosen the right shoulder strap and tighten the left strap the accordion moves to the left and holding the forearm perpendicular to the keyboard becomes possible for all notes. I have seen many people play with the accordion too far to their right to play comfortably (regarding right wrist position).

 

[Deleted member 48]

All elements of accordion playing technique should be balanced. I agree straps, angles and the chair when seated, every element is part of a good technique.
Height of the accordion is another factor.

I would also like to question the traditions about the length of the keys in piano accordions. Shorter keys are better suited for PAs.
PA makers sometimes are too much attached to the horizontal pianoforte keyboard, copy pasting key lengths to PA.

With shorter keys, the accordion can stay in place if the straps fit, the angles are right etc etc

 

[xocd]

When this advice is anatomically impossible it means you are playing with the accordion too far to the (your) right. When you loosen the right shoulder strap and tighten the left strap the accordion moves to the left and holding the forearm perpendicular to the keyboard becomes possible for all notes. I have seen many people play with the accordion too far to their right to play comfortably (regarding right wrist position).

The line where the keys intersect the body of the accordion is a couple of centimeters to the right of the middle of my chest. A bit more to the left than the first picture on this page:

Exemplar

Thanks!

 

[Glenn]

Looking at the pictures in your "exemplar" do you achieve the playing angle of the last picture? This should be achievable .


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[debra]

Looking at the pictures in your exemplar do you achieve the playing angle of the last picture? This should be achievable .

The example pictures are not the best. In the first picture I am actually playing on my wifes accordion, so the straps are not adjusted correctly. Its better in the fourth picture of http://www.kwintissimo.nl/wie.html where I am wearing my own accordion. The difference is small, but here the accordion is just a bit more to my left, making for a more comfortable wrist angle. There has been a shift over the years where peoples attention is being drawn more and more to the correct angle. Many people keep their (right) elbow too close to their body, causing a 90 degree hand-to-arm wrist angle rather than being as straight as possible. I often catch myself drawing my elbow closer to my body when I am uncertain or nervous whereas when I am playing with confidence I keep my elbow further away and more forward, resulting in a better angle and better play as well. So this is the better angle (and the better accordion as well...):
http://www.kwintissimo.nl/fotos/paul.jpg>

 

[george garside]

My 2 cents:. The forearm must be at a right angle with the keyboard (as much as possible), thereby letting the wrist and fingers play in a more relaxed position..
[/size][/font][/quote]

This advice is anatomically impossible. My forearm can be more or less perpendicular to the keyboard only on the lowest notes of the keyboard (43 key keyboard). The higher in pitch, the more the angle changes. Once I am playing on the C above middle-C, there is no way. :hb

Thanks,[/quote]
When this advice is anatomically impossible it means you are playing with the accordion too far to the (your) right. When you loosen the right shoulder strap and tighten the left strap the accordion moves to the left and holding the forearm perpendicular to the keyboard becomes possible for all notes. I have seen many people play with the accordion too far to their right to play comfortably (regarding right wrist position)


.[/quote]
bord
The starting position for strap aadjustment is right strap longer then left then adjust the two so that the keyboard is roughly under the chin. Then adjust both straps by the same amount to put the top of the box about a stretched handswidth below the chin when standing to attention and looking straight ahead. Finally make some ver small adjustments over a week or so of playing to suite your anatomy!

I agree about hand at right angle to centre point of keyboard anad this can also be achieved over mot of the keyboard by keeping the hand in line with the arm and using the elbow and shoulder joints rather than twisting the wrist. The elbow should be at the side of your body most of the time and not flapping around in the air as if trying to take off!

george

 

[JerryPH]

Actually, for minimum damage to the wrist, no you never place the the elbow against the body. The wrist should be nearly straight at all times. If you are playing and the wrist is bent more than (let's say) 20 degrees, your elbow is not high enough. Having a straight wrist means no carpal tunnel issues ever and your finger tendons are not restricted meaning you can play at maximum speed and flexibility with maximum comfort. My wrist never is bent more than 10 degrees, and I have no issues passing the thumb under the fingers for as much as 3 notes up top and 2 notes at the bottom of the keyboard without strain.

 

[Corsaire]

I am in full agreement with JerryPH and Debra : I am also a pianist but also learnt to touch type on a manual typewriter many years ago. I have never had the slightest problem with my wrists because I always keep my forearm and back of the hand pretty much in a level line, relaxed and keeping the wrists flexible. This allows me to do all sorts of what may be considered unconventional moves, including thumb under (on PA).
When using my laptop, my wrists are always airborne, never on the 'puter itself.
George - I agree with you too, but my right elbow us generally 10 - 15 cm out from my body.

For myself, I believe it's vital to keep the wrists soft and flexible, as locking in one position can create tension which will spread to other areas. Keeping the shoulders, elbows and wrists relaxed (a little movement may be required to achieve this, but it doesn't have to be exaggerated !) and a little stretch before and after playing works wonders.