Upgrade Decision Advice

[Justin L]

Hello everyone, first post here! I'm a newer chromatic C system player here in Texas. I have a Weltmeister 703 (3 bass registers, 5 Treble) it's a good accordion but I've already got the upgrade bug going. Is upgrading to a better accordion going to make much of a difference in the sound I'm producing? (I know it won't make me a better player.) I'd be looking at going to something like one of the below around that $4500 range.

Liberty Bellows - Scandalli AIR IC
Liberty Bellows - Black Beltuna Studio III
Petosa - Americana C39
Carnegie - Bugari 320
Reverb - Used Bugari Armando Champion Cassotto

I'd love to go in person, try stuff out, bring in my Weltmeister test it out against other accordions. But just making the trip alone has costs, also being a Chromatic player there's not a store that has a lot of options here in the US (Maybe Liberty Bellows).

Anyways what do yall think? Should I just sit tight with the Weltmeister as it's not much of a difference compared to the above accordions? Any of the accordions listed above stand out either in a positive or negative way?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Ben-jammin]

It may come down to personal opinions here, so expect to get all different kinds. My advice is if you can afford to upgrade and want to then do it, but make sure you identified the features/tuning of the accordion you want first. If you haven’t done that yet it might be costly to later maneuver to an equally high end instrument that ticks those boxes. A nicer instrument can be more of a joy to play and make each practice session more enjoyable. I would use your Weltmeister to have a reference point to see what you want to be different. You would hate to upgrade and find out later you prefer the tuning on your more modest instrument.

 

[saundersbp]

Any of the accordions listed above stand out either in a positive or negative way?

Funnily enough I've been playing one of these all weekend and I have to say I rather like the combination of non crazy weight, bit compact, no schmocassotto but loads of umph in the bellows. Got enough notes to play anything within the realms of common sanity too. Also would give you the option of learning free bass in the future....

 

[Justin L]

make sure you identified the features/tuning of the accordion you want first.

I do need to think about this, I've never actually put much thought into the sounds I want. Maybe it would help to record myself playing and listening to it.

Funnily enough I've been playing one of these all weekend and I have to say I rather like the combination of non crazy weight, bit compact, no schmocassotto but loads of umph in the bellows. Got enough notes to play anything within the realms of common sanity too. Also would give you the option of learning free bass in the future....

That looks like an amazing accordion! I never thought about free bass much, but might be natural coming from a chromatic accordion.

 

[dak]

Hello everyone, first post here! I'm a newer chromatic C system player here in Texas. I have a Weltmeister 703 (3 bass registers, 5 Treble) it's a good accordion but I've already got the upgrade bug going. Is upgrading to a better accordion going to make much of a difference in the sound I'm producing? (I know it won't make me a better player.)

See, here you trigger my tendency to be contrarian. Upgrading to a better accordion is going to make a difference in the sound the accordion is producing. And that may work out better for you to progress on your road to becoming a better player.

Will a better saw make you a better carpenter? Not per se. But if you are doing a lot of carpentry, inferior tools are going to end up being a drag on where you want to go.

I'd be looking at going to something like one of the below around that $4500 range.

Liberty Bellows - Scandalli AIR IC
Liberty Bellows - Black Beltuna Studio III
Petosa - Americana C39
Carnegie - Bugari 320
Reverb - Used Bugari Armando Champion Cassotto

So here is the problem: those instruments will have different qualities and age. Some of them are excellent technical performers which will make playing easy. Others may be less of an advantage technically but may offer a more compelling sound quality.

What works for you is personal. And there may be something that works better for you on where you are on your path now but may not stick with you forever. That makes it hard to do suggestions. The Scandalli Air is obviously optimized for weight. That's nice when performing while standing or when your back is at the end of its lifetime. Beltuna is a brand that in my opinion is more optimized for the audience than for the player, in this case concerning the sound and volume. I don't really have significant experience with most of those instruments and names, but given that list, I'd likely gravitate towards the last in the list. But the sanest approach is play them all with a view towards what kind of music you want to end up playing. Sound quality in different registers and the tonal balance between several bass and treble registrations in several playing styles are important here, and you don't really get to guess them from the specs.

I'd love to go in person, try stuff out, bring in my Weltmeister test it out against other accordions. But just making the trip alone has costs, also being a Chromatic player there's not a store that has a lot of options here in the US (Maybe Liberty Bellows).

Anyways what do yall think? Should I just sit tight with the Weltmeister as it's not much of a difference compared to the above accordions? Any of the accordions listed above stand out either in a positive or negative way?

It depends on what you want to play and how, and whether or not your instrument happens to be holding you back. The main person to ask about that may be your teacher.

 

[Bloviator]

One thing that may not stand out to you is the size of the buttons.
While this varies, you may be disappointed if you go from small buttons on a compact instrument, to large buttons that are spread out. And vise versa.

 

[Justin L]

Thanks for all the responses! I never even considered button size and spacing. Part of the reason why I like the Chromatic Button Accordions is that my hands are on the smaller size.

 

[SteveBox]

Thanks for all the responses! I never even considered button size and spacing. Part of the reason why I like the Chromatic Button Accordions is that my hands are on the smaller size.

It would seem that CBA button size and spacing is seldom mentioned in the specs, but it's important to know. Both of my CBAs have 14-15mm buttons and 19mm spacing on the right-hand side. This is the smaller size and is also used by diatonic melodeons. However, some CBAs have 16-17mm buttons and a wider spacing. It's not a big difference, and one can adjust to either one, but it would be a pain to be playing multiple instruments with different spacings.

Another thing to pay attention to is the tuning. It is not always A440.

 

[debra]

Regarding the button size: most often when you get a button accordion designed for convertor it will have more notes and smaller buttons than one designed for just standard bass (except when it's a French style model, like a Cavagnolo, because these will always have small buttons). Whether smaller or larger buttons suit you better is not really a matter of having small or large hands (you can reach almost or really two octaves without large hands). It's a matter of being comfortable with the tight/narrow spacing versus liking the buttons a bit further spread out.
I feel more comfortable on accordions with larger buttons, but I get by on smaller buttons (and my regular accordions all have smallish buttons and only my bass accordion has large buttons).

 

[SteveBox]

Again regarding button size... I am curious what factors cause an accordion manufacturer to choose one button size/spacing over the other. Certainly, there are regional preferences, as in France. I inquired once about the spacing on Roland V-Accordions and a few responders said it was the smaller buttons with 19mm spacing. Here Roland was starting from a clean-sheet design, so they could have chosen either. One would think they would want to appeal to the greatest number of potential customers, so I am intrigued as to why they chose the smaller buttons. (No complaints from me if I ever decide to get one, as this matches my other instruments.) It remains to be seen what the new Korg digital CBAs are using.

 

[Justin L]

Maybe what a normal size hand is varies by region? So depending on where it's manufactured it could vary? Great now I'm googling largest hand size by country.

 

[SteveBox]

I would guess the French preference for the smaller button size/spacing has to do with their traditional playing technique, where they avoid the use of the thumb. It would not be because they have smaller hands.

 

[debra]

Again regarding button size... I am curious what factors cause an accordion manufacturer to choose one button size/spacing over the other. Certainly, there are regional preferences, as in France. I inquired once about the spacing on Roland V-Accordions and a few responders said it was the smaller buttons with 19mm spacing. Here Roland was starting from a clean-sheet design, so they could have chosen either. One would think they would want to appeal to the greatest number of potential customers, so I am intrigued as to why they chose the smaller buttons. (No complaints from me if I ever decide to get one, as this matches my other instruments.) It remains to be seen what the new Korg digital CBAs are using.

Button size is chosen partly for cosmetic reasons and partly for technical reasons. When you have a "full size" accordion with just 46 treble notes (which is what most full size accordions without convertor have) then a keyboard with just enough buttons for these notes and with small buttons would look ridiculous, and the levers going from button to the pallets on the edges would need to go sideways a lot. Essentially, the keyboard has to come as close to filling the available space as is reasonable. So a full size 46-note accordion will use the largest size buttons and even have some dummy buttons at the low and high end to fill the space.
A French style accordion has a much more compact body (perhaps 40cm tall in the playing orientation) and needs 6 reed blocks for a 4-voice instrument (instead of 4 reed blocks in the 46-note full-size accordions). These accordions also have more notes, typically 52.
A bayan uses 6 reed blocks to fit 64 notes, and has only the buttons for these notes, no dummies at the ends. It needs the buttons to be small to fit the keyboard in the available space.
So really it is a matter of making keyboards look good, large enough so the levers/arms don't need to go too far sideways, and small enough to not require the accordion to be larger.
I have accordions with the smallest buttons, one with an intermediate size, and some with the largest buttons. It's a but uncomfortable to switch between them, but you get used to it. (The difference is really large: with the smallest buttons 5 buttons fit in the space that accommodates only 4 buttons with the largest size.)

 

[RowanSumner]

Just something on the cassotto / non cassotto question.

I got the chance to play a number of instruments in this price range yesterday. I played a sonlola double cassotto, a vignoni double cassotto and a non cassotto bugari.

To me the Bugari sounded considerably better. Im no expert on reeds or accordions in this price range but I still think the best thing you can do is play them.

Second to that, if I was going to buy one (i still might) it would be the vignoni. It had been recently reconditioned and the feel of the instrument was miles above the other two, more expensive instruments. And as far as it not making you a better player, I think the keyboard action of the vignoni and the bugari definitely made me a better player!

 

[dak]

Just something on the cassotto / non cassotto question.

I got the chance to play a number of instruments in this price range yesterday. I played a sonlola double cassotto, a vignoni double cassotto and a non cassotto bugari.

To me the Bugari sounded considerably better. Im no expert on reeds or accordions in this price range but I still think the best thing you can do is play them.

The point of a cassotto is that it tempers and domesticates the plentiful and harsh overtones of highest quality reeds with the tiniest of reed gaps that make for great dynamic control and response. If you put a cassotto on average reeds, its effect is more one of a muffler.

Since "cassotto" has become synonymous with high quality and is a lot cheaper to provide than high quality reeds, there is a tendency to put a cassotto where it doesn't really improve things. Kind of like putting wind spoilers on a tricycle.

So one really needs to hear the instruments to figure out whether one likes the result rather than the specs.

 

[RowanSumner]

Very interesting. They were all described to me as having 'handmade reeds'. Without going to far down the reed rabbit hole it seems like it depends more on the hands that made the reeds, rather than the fact that they're 'handmade' (or handfinished).

I did notice on the two cassotto instruments a little delay in response when playing at lower volumes. They had all been tuned recently.

This is all massively pedantic nitpicking as they were all great instruments, but an interesting discussion nonetheless

 

[dak]

Very interesting. They were all described to me as having 'handmade reeds'. Without going to far down the reed rabbit hole it seems like it depends more on the hands that made the reeds, rather than the fact that they're 'handmade' (or handfinished).

I did notice on the two cassotto instruments a little delay in response when playing at lower volumes. They had all been tuned recently.

Well, here's the deal: the tuner is actually responsible for setting up the response of the reeds. The better the reeds are, the more possibilities the tuner has for balancing response and volume, and the more finicky the process gets. A three-star meal requires good ingredients but that's not where it stops.

Things get more complicated since the traditional categories of reeds (like hand-made and hand-finished) are these days employed for different qualities of reeds that aren't actually hand-made or hand-finished. And some of the visuals by which quality reeds could be identified in the past are not necessarily artifacts of the production processes anymore but deliberately applied in order to reflect the manufacturer's idea of their respective qualities.

In the end you get back to the main criterion: how the instrument sounds and responds when you play it is important. I think that the old masters were pretty cavalier about combining reeds from different manufacturers and also different qualities and sizes in left and right hand if the result was more musically useful than if everything would have been from the highest priced reeds available. Nowadays it's more of "you cannot go wrong with the best, and that's what the customer wants and pays for".

 

[debra]

Very interesting. They were all described to me as having 'handmade reeds'. Without going to far down the reed rabbit hole it seems like it depends more on the hands that made the reeds, rather than the fact that they're 'handmade' (or handfinished).

I did notice on the two cassotto instruments a little delay in response when playing at lower volumes. They had all been tuned recently.

This is all massively pedantic nitpicking as they were all great instruments, but an interesting discussion nonetheless

It certainly depends on the hands that made the reeds, but on older instruments that may have been tuned multiple times it also depends a lot on the hands of the tuners that have handled the reeds. If reeds are not fully supported while filing or scratching the voicing (gap between the tip of the reed and the reed plate) may change, and that influences the responsiveness. The best voicing is still always a compromise between getting the reeds to start quickly at low volume and the reeds still not choking when starting a note abruptly at high volume. You would hope that the voicing is at least consistent on a new instrument, but on all but the most expensive models this is just a fantasy and not the reality. A good tuner can dramatically improve even a new instrument, but it takes quite a bit of time and effort (and thus money).

 

[Squeezeplay]

If you can’t actually physically play it first, I would likely go with Liberty Bellows……you buy from them, and within thirty days, you don’t like it, they will take it back. I have bought two boxes from them, and each was actually better than advertised.
The other option is Petosa, who also have a good reputation.