Very basic CBA fingering question

[Bobo]

I found all my old Palmer-Hughes accordion books and I figured I can work my way through the easiest ones using the CBA simulator app on my tablet.

Here's my basic question. If the passage is G-F E, F-E-D, C...using the thumbless method, would the fingering be 4-3-2, 4-3-2, 2? So the 2 jumps from D to C?
Or is this an instance where you would use the thumb?

 

[maugein96]

Providing you are not considering going lower than C you can hit it with 2 or more probably 3. If I was going below C I'd probably use the thumb cheat here, depending on what the tune demanded of me next. Try not to work on the principle that you absolutely need to follow any definitive method of placing your fingers on certain buttons. There is no absolute correct fingering method for CBA. Some work better than others in various situations, but it's often a case of experimenting until you find the one that works best for you.

Some players would do 4-3-2, 5-4-3-2 for the notes you list, but I suppose that would be sacrilege for an ex PA player, especially if you have big fingers. In situations where you might find you don't have enough room to comfortably place your fingers in a cramped position it is sometimes wiser to try options on other rows, but that is probably not recommended in the early days.

Aimable, one of the biggest name French musette players, never used anything other than fingers 2-3-4 to play his whole repertoire. He devised various methods of crossing over and switching fingers so that he did everything including arpeggios spanning two or more octaves without using his thumb or his little finger. He obviously wasn't going to win any prizes for technical ability, but became a millionaire by playing simple music on which which he placed his own indelible stamp. He usually played 5 row chromatics and made good use of all 5 rows, consistent with his non-standard approach to fingering.

 

[Bobo]

Thanks Maugein!

One thing I notice as I play simple melodies:

-My fingers are already moving to the keys as I read the notes
-My fingers are choosing to relocate or not based on whether the melody is continuing upward or coming back down.

So I'm optimistic. Just want to start with good habits.

 

[maugein96]

With your previous musical knowledge and playing experience I suppose it's just a case of transposing what you already can play onto another system. I started on CBA with a guitar background, and that helped me to find my way around the treble fingerboard, although the bellows and basses continue to be a bit of a challenge, even after 30 odd years of playing. I can manage alternate basses without too much trouble, but I've never really mastered those little runs that are a feature of a lot of tunes. Some people just get on with it and it seems to come naturally to them, but I find playing guitar chords interspersed with single note melodies are about the limit of my musical ability.

The concept of playing two keyboards at the one time is the hardest thing for me with accordion. Treble side is not a big problem, just those basses. I couldn't even think about playing chords on a piano whilst trying to play a melody, so I suppose the accordion is a bit easier for us all.

Keep at at. Sounds like you're making good progress.

 

[debra]

I found all my old Palmer-Hughes accordion books and I figured I can work my way through the easiest ones using the CBA simulator app on my tablet.

Heres my basic question. If the passage is G-F E, F-E-D, C...using the thumbless method, would the fingering be 4-3-2, 4-3-2, 2? So the 2 jumps from D to C?
Or is this an instance where you would use the thumb?

There is no good reason for ever avoiding the thumb. Its as good a finger as all the others, and I do not hesitate to use it on all rows (but mostly only on the first three rows). I would probably play G-F E, F-E-D, C with either 4-3-2-4-3-2-1 or even 3-2-1-4-3-2-1 of perhaps even 3-2-1-2-1-2-1. (This is all on C-system.) Im sure that my wife would consider the first fingering but not the other two (she uses the thumb less). Its all personal. After learning the basics, dump the textbooks and use whatever comes natural to you. It is often sad to see people sticking to a textbook against better judgment, even with PA where people were taught for decades to use the same fingering as piano players (for the right hand). Sometimes that does also not make sense because an accordion really is not a piano. (The position of the wrist and thus fingers to the keyboard is different, and less force is needed so the little finger does not need a different treatment like it does on a piano.)

 

[maugein96]

Paul's advice sums it up. Use the textbooks as a beginner's tool, then find out what suits you best. You might even find that certain music styles are better played using different fingering. The arguments often broached with regard to CBA fingering is the cause of a lot of anxiety and lack of confidence amongst even experienced players. Modern school says get that thumb working, as there is no point in making things difficult just for the sake of it. In the days when the thumb was regarded by some CBA teachers as "the enemy", popular mainstream accordion music was probably less demanding, and four fingers were usually enough to get by on. Even some of the most complicated popular pieces like "La Migliavacca" can (rather uncomfortably) be played without the thumb, albeit by very experienced and accomplished players. However, why waste a lot of time trying that, when you have that extra finger sitting in the "sin bin" on the edge of the keyboard?

As a glaring example of the confusion that can arise, in my last post I said hit the C with finger 2 or 3, when I meant 3 or 4. The method I learned referred to the digits as
0-1-2-3-4, with 0 being the thumb, so I reverted to that terminology in one phrase then went modern in another. The number 5 would only apply in the notation I learned by if you had 6 fingers on your right hand!

Another famous pro player, Joe Rossi, lost his third finger during WW2, and had to re-learn the whole shebang with the fingers he had left. He was a top recording artiste for years. Yet another, Daniel Colin, who is of extremely small stature, devised his own fingering method so that he could make use of his thumb.

To go on, a lot of self-taught CBA players here in Scotland tend to mainly use their thumb and first two fingers across all 5 rows, and I know a pro player who plays that way, and has made several commercial recordings on cassette tape and CD. I for one wouldn't dare tell him he isn't using the correct fingering!

 

[Pat S.]

Why not 5 4 3, 4 3 2, 1 ?

 

[Bobo]

Ok, great advice. I was just trying to make sure that when I did progress to music that had fast passages I hadn't set myself up with bad habits, but it looks like I'm overthinking it.

Thanks!

 

[debra]

Why not 5 4 3, 4 3 2, 1 ?

Good suggestion. I tend to avoid 5 but thats just personal because my little finger does not seem to work as well as the other fingers.

 

[maugein96]

Simon's suggestion for 5 to be used first rather than later in the run is way better and more practical than mine, which was purely hypothetical.

I've noted that a lot of PA players, and some CBA players, don't tend to make much use of their little finger.

If you use an instrument with the largest treble buttons the span between an octave is not so much of a problem for the thumb to work across the rows. However, when you get down to the typical French button size some people with larger hands have difficulty getting all of their fingers to work properly, as they can all end up bunched together. The old French way of thinking was to get the thumb out of the way, as after all the small buttons and spacing were made that way so that players with average sized hands and fingers could comfortably play octaves using only fingers 2 and 4. Most of the older French methods got players to start using the little finger straight away so that strength could be gradually built up. Problem is that for some people that strength in the little finger never actually materialises past an elementary stage, and people like me who started off learning by an Italian method then switching to a French "no thumb" method begin to hit problems.

The usual remedy is to "revert to type" and get the thumb back on to keep the music flowing as an alternative to maybe waiting several months until the strength in your little finger gets better, if it ever does. Young French kids who were taught under the "no thumb" regime, and who make the grade, usually manage to achieve what is expected of them, as they started off before they had any hang ups about the instrument, and were young enough to build up that little finger strength naturally. Those of us who start late (I was over 30), or convert from PA need to find the most workable fingering that will be ultimately possible for us to achieve, otherwise playing "Three Blind Mice" for a few months until you are confident you are doing it by the book is all that is on the cards.

Keep playing with whatever fingers you can manage.

 

[Acon]

Giving mitchncs example (G-F E, F-E-D, C), Ill use exactly the same fingering options as Pauls. His thinking is completely the same as mine (and I got a useless little finger too ). I almost use my thumb on C note every time if its a C key. When playing a harder piece I always try to think about the chord patterns/progression first to design the best fingering for me. I found myself often using the thumb to hit the 2nd and 3rd row with the alternative rows (4th/5th) for forming a same chord fingering pattern as those starting from the 1st one. Of course I am no expert but just found this the most comfortable way for my level.

Just tried to record this piece yesterday. Again Im not a pro and I dont have any teacher so its just for explaining my idea: using my thumb on every row (well...maybe not the 4th/5th. Doesnt make any sense for me to do that).


And Im sorry Paul, I looked down at my keyboard one time. :roll: ok maybe two times. :lol:

And sorry for my poker face too.

 

[Bobo]

What an alien instrument!



Cant believe Im going to attempt to learn it.
If Roland ever decides to ship one.

 

[debra]

...
Just tried to record this piece yesterday. Again Im not a pro and I dont have any teacher so its just for explaining my idea: using my thumb on every row (well...maybe not the 4th/5th. Doesnt make any sense for me to do that).


And Im sorry Paul, I looked down at my keyboard one time. :roll: ok maybe two times. :lol:

And sorry for my poker face too.

Very well done. It is impressive what you manage to get out of that small Pigini, and how well you master this difficult piece. OK, yes, you did look down at the keyboard (3 times I believe) and I think that was in fact not even needed. What I do when Im not entirely sure that Im on the right notes is feel for the C and F keys that are textured. Its like looking with your fingers.

 

[Morne]

I agree, that's very well done. Doing it without a teacher makes it even more impressive. The only thing that piece maybe needs is a set of bayan reeds .

 

[debra]

I agree, thats very well done. Doing it without a teacher makes it even more impressive. The only thing that piece maybe needs is a set of bayan reeds .

Actually, good accordion reeds, in a bigger box with cassotto, would do fine. The main problem when trying such a piece on a small study accordion is that people try to make the instrument do things it simply cant. The performance is great, and doing it without a teacher makes it more impressive indeed, but you can hear that the accordion just cannot keep up.

 

[Acon]

Good suggestion! I've ordered an PIGINI Master 58/B de luxe!! {}

Will get it in the middle of this year! :roll:

 

[debra]

Good suggestion! Ive ordered an PIGINI Master 58/B de luxe!! {}

Will get it in the middle of this year! :roll:

That is good news for you!
Looking at the Pigini site there is a Master 58/B and there is a Bayan 58/B de Luxe but no Master 58/B de Luxe.
So what is it you are getting? (I would not be surprised if you got something they do not advertise. We have ordered instruments from Bugari that officially did not exist either.) The Master 58/B has 58 notes and the Bayan 58/B de Luxe has 64 notes despite the 58 in the name (unless that is an error, wouldnt be the first time. The bass range is also off by one).
I have a Bugari 540/ARS/C which is the equivalent of the Pigini Super Compact (52 notes, cassotto) and and that is a formidable small thing with sound like the big ones, very impressive. These are so similar I would not be surprised if they either just copied from each other or if one just outsourced to the other. The grille is different and the markings on the bass registers but otherwise absolutely identical. (I have actually tried the Pigini Super Compact briefly at the Frankfurter Musikmesse to confirm they are identical.) Likewise I confirmed that the Pigini Master 58/B and the Bugari 580/ARS/C are virtually identical except for the bass registers (and the Bugari having 61 notes now, where it used to have 58 until recently). Nobody is original any more...

 

[Acon]

Paul,

There is a PIGINI Master 58/B de luxe (I usually don't make mistakes in the model names or the specification of products I'm interested, especially a very expensive music instrument that I will play for the next decade ).

PIGINI doesn't list it on their website but it has existed at least few years. I got their 2015 and 2016 complete product lists from my Taiwanese reseller (also my previous teacher and my future business partner) and this model was already listed on both of them.

The only difference between de luxe version and the normal version is the former has hand-made reeds.

This Master 58/B de luxe is actually the top studio model of PIGINI converter series. From the next one starts the concert models (all the way to the most expensive one "Nòva"):

Bayan 58/B De Luxe
Bayan 58/B PLUS
Super Bayan Sirius Piano
Sirius Compact
Super Bayan Sirius
Sirius Millennium
Nòva Piano
Nòva

All concert models have hand-made reeds, and the ones with "Piano" on their name are PA, not CBA.

I was making a decision between the Sirius Compact and the Master 58/B de luxe but the former is too expensive and need to wait for 10 months' production, just too long for me.

And the grille is actually customizable when you place the order to PIGINI so it doesn't mean anything when you try to compare different products.

 

[debra]

Paul,

There is a PIGINI Master 58/B de luxe (I usually dont make mistakes in the model names or the specification of products Im interested, especially a very expensive music instrument that I will play for the next decade ).

PIGINI doesnt list it on their website but it has existed at least few years. I got their 2015 and 2016 complete product lists from my Taiwanese reseller (also my previous teacher and my future business partner) and this model was already listed on both of them.

Hah! So my guess was right that they do make instruments that are not in their public list. Just like what Bugari does. We bought a Bugari 289/ARS/C5 PA which hasnt been on their list for at least 10 years, but it appears to have returned to the list now.

The only difference between de luxe version and the normal version is the former has hand-made reeds.

This Master 58/B de luxe is actually the top studio model of PIGINI converter series. From the next one starts the concert models (all the way to the most expensive one Nòva):
...
I was making a decision between the Sirius Compact and the Master 58/B de luxe but the former is too expensive and need to wait for 10 months production, just too long for me.

And the grille is actually customizable when you place the order to PIGINI so it doesnt mean anything when you try to compare different products.

Yeah, decisions, decisions...

I guess the Master 58/B (de luxe or not) is a good compromise between size, weight, capabilities, price and waiting time. Actually, waiting for 10 months isnt all that exceptional with anything that is not really completely off the shelf. (With the Master 58/B the only thing you get to choose besides the grille is the chin switches and whether you want bellows straps or not...)

 

[TomBR]

Just tried to record this piece yesterday. Again Im not a pro and I dont have any teacher so its just for explaining my idea: using my thumb on every row (well...maybe not the 4th/5th. Doesnt make any sense for me to do that).


And Im sorry Paul, I looked down at my keyboard one time. :roll: ok maybe two times. :lol:

And sorry for my poker face too.

Youve been playing CBA for how long, about 18 months?
Im very impressed, there must have been quite some focus there.
Are you a pianist as well?

All else is forgiven I think!
Tom