Wet MM in cassotto?

[tcabot]

Hi all.

As my mind drifts thinking about accordion voices, one thing I notice is that you don't see the combination of two wet MM reeds in cassotto.
Has anyone actually tried it/heard it? Is there a good reason why nobody ever does this? Plenty of double cassotto boxes, but never with chambered MM+, so there's got to be good reasons for it, right?

 

[losthobos]

CJS make an MM in Cassotto model...

 

[Ventura]

for large ,full size accordions:
because overwhelmingly the L reed is the most important for the most people
and so it is always "in" leaving only one more available slot, which is then
overwhelmingly the M

i have a (one off) Pan where the M+ reed is in and the M is out.

"built as musette" boxes are overwhelmingly non-chambered i would say mainly
because the effect of multiple sets of M intended and dedicated
to the sound simply do not need it, the sound is incredibly rich/complex as is...
just as hand made reeds are more or less overkill in a dedicated 3 reed
Musette box

i would also doubt the current market segment to prefer a heavier cassotto box
when Musette is more for the niche and ethnic markets, who are not usually
old accordion Dinosaurs strolling around restaurants with big ol'
italian or french sounding boxes, but smaller, more nimble modern players
in ensembles or at folk festival jams

 

[tcabot]

Well, I've been told many times that M-MM+ do not sound good with M in cassotto... I even heard some examples and I agreed...Until I got my current morino with master M in cassotto and =/- 12 cent detuning on the non-cassotto reeds. The musette sounds great and I can listen to it all day long. I guess it all comes down to how the particular reed type plays in the particular box.

Which got me thinking about MM+, both in cassotto, with a very slight de-tuning, say, 4-6 cents. Not a full blown+25 musette (that would sound horrid in a 2-voice box anyway).
Maybe even MM-6 in cassotto and another M+6 outside?

Just wondering if anyone tried anything like this - it would sure be a very expensive experiment to attempt.

 

[Ventura]

it would sure be a very expensive experiment to attempt.

i guess if you could run into an old LMMH cassotto accordion in rough sbape,
maybe even a rusty reed job that is in someones parts pile, but the action
is still good or reasonably repairable

strip everything out block off the non-cassotto section re-work the L
block to accept M reeds and just use it for awhile as an MM in cassotto

you can find donor M reedsets in lots of old basket case accordions

 

[debra]

Well, I've been told many times that M-MM+ do not sound good with M in cassotto... I even heard some examples and I agreed...Until I got my current morino with master M in cassotto and =/- 12 cent detuning on the non-cassotto reeds. The musette sounds great and I can listen to it all day long. I guess it all comes down to how the particular reed type plays in the particular box.

Which got me thinking about MM+, both in cassotto, with a very slight de-tuning, say, 4-6 cents. Not a full blown+25 musette (that would sound horrid in a 2-voice box anyway).
Maybe even MM-6 in cassotto and another M+6 outside?

Just wondering if anyone tried anything like this - it would sure be a very expensive experiment to attempt.

Whether M-MM+ or MM+ sounds good with M in cassotto depends largely on how the cassotto changes the sound of that M, in terms of timbre and volume. The nicest sound imho comes from the Hohner Morino M series, followed by the Morino N and S series. The M in cassotto is less overpowering than on modern cassotto instruments.
The amount of tremolo doesn't really change how the M and M+ (and M-) reeds mix. I have done -5.0.+5, -8,0,+8, -10,0,+10 on Morino accordions and they all sound very nice.The amount of tremolo is simply what the customer wants.
You will not easily find an accordion with two M's in cassotto because only two voices fit in the cassotto and "everyone" wants at least L in cassotto. Some accordions do have LH in cassotto so you can get the MM (or MMM) without cassotto interference.

 

[losthobos]

 

[tcabot]

Learn something new every day, The only "CJS" I've heard of before is the swinger's club in Glasgow

How does this double MM cassotto sound? Have you played it?

 

[dak]

Hi all.

As my mind drifts thinking about accordion voices, one thing I notice is that you don't see the combination of two wet MM reeds in cassotto.
Has anyone actually tried it/heard it? Is there a good reason why nobody ever does this? Plenty of double cassotto boxes, but never with chambered MM+, so there's got to be good reasons for it, right?

A common tone chamber for two reeds followed by an exit channel provides a common resonance room for the reeds with a comparatively large exit resistance. That provides the reeds with more than common tendency to self-synchronize. Which helps reeds sounding together in straight octave relations and is kind of a nuisance for getting consistent tremolo behavior at different dynamics and on push and pull. I have little doubt that this has been tried at times, and have little doubt the combo was not popular with factory tuners.

 

[losthobos]

No, I haven't played but I've heard some clips on YouTube...
I am very interested in their bass adaption and would consider a CBA version if they had in stock....
I questioned them as to why two M reeds in cassotto and they replied
'because they sound beautiful'....

 

[tcabot]

Dang.

I do have a "spare" double chambered club morino that needs a complete reed overhaul anyway, so I am now tempted to try it. Unfortunately, by the time you've done all the work and properly tuned it/got it tuned, you're quite deeply invested into it.

Do CJs say how much they de-tune the cassotto voices by?

 

[pitzelberger]

Well, the Stradavox Eldorado Quadruple-Tone Chamber accordion certainly has both M reeds in the tone chamber.

 

[Vladimir M.]

Plenty of double cassotto boxes, but never with chambered MM+,

the Stradavox Eldorado Quadruple-Tone Chamber accordion certainly has both M reeds in the tone chamber.

yes, for example, the legendary Stradavox has all four choirs in cassotto in the treble:

Source of the photos: Click

This instrument was a successful project, but it has not expanded, so toady´s accordions only have part of the reed-blocks in cassotto. It's hard to negate established traditions...

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[Ventura]

it is also very hard to play the Strad Quad, required tremendous
bellows pressure, and it is very heavy

you need to be a massive guy with really strong arms and stamina
to go more than a couple songs on it without feeling fatigued

i would suggest that is why few were built/ordered/sold

 

[tcabot]

I'd be surprised if that has anything to do with quad cassotto though - surely, the right hand side just sits on your knee, while you're squeezing the left. Shouldn't matter whether it is 4.8, 8.4 or 18.4kg while you're squeezing (different story for carrying the damn thing up & down the stairs).

 

[Ventura]

that (actual, one and only, honestly can be called double) tone chamber
mutes the sound so much you have to squeeze hell to get any volume
out of it.. like the Roland when you first play one.. everyone gets a sore arm..

had to be like 30 pounds.. i did stroll around the room with it..
(prefer to stand while playing..) way heavier than my 960..
balance point was quite different too

it had hm reeds, very responsive, just severely limited dynamic range
compared to a typical single TC LMMH box

occasionally one comes up for sale in the USA, and it usually takes
years to find a buyer

 

[debra]

Well, the Stradavox Eldorado Quadruple-Tone Chamber accordion certainly has both M reeds in the tone chamber.

Have you noticed that this accordion uses an enormous amount of air for the sound that is coming out?
Even when just playing a simple melody on a single reed the bellows keeps opening and closing like you'd expect when playing chords with all the voices. This accordion must have massive air leaks.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

yes, for example, the legendary Stradavox has all four choirs in cassotto in the treble:

Source of the photos: Click

This instrument was a successful project, but it has not expanded, so toady´s accordions only have part of the reed-blocks in cassotto. It's hard to negate established traditions...

Best regards, Vladimir

I own one of these. It is a magnificent accordion, with an incredibly rich tone, particularly in the bassoon. I rarely play it though because, as others have pointed out, it is 30 pounds and considerably quieter than my 23 pound Morino IVM. Just not practical for hauling around to gigs. I think I prefer MM with one reed outside the chamber also. It just has more bite or something. I will say that the piccolo reed in cassotto on the Stradavox is the sweetest I've heard on any accordion.

 

[tcabot]

piccollo in cassotto definitely has some merit. I thought it was a waste of a cassotto slot when I just got my Accordiola, but I then realised that it produces a very interesting LH tone that does not have the harshness of a non-chambered H in LH. [LH]M also becomes a very different beast from [LM]H