What exactly is a French accordion?

[maugein96]

Rather than try and explain this phenomenon in detail Ive take the opportunity to post a link to an accordion dealer who is based near Lyon in France.

Although the website and catalogues are obviously in French, if you take a little time and trouble to explore the various links contained within the website youll find a lot of useful information with regard to tunings, including some sound samples. The various reed combinations used by French players, such as double bassoon, and also which reeds are found in tone chambers can be ascertained from the diagrams, and IMHO it is worth taking that little bit of trouble to ascertain how the internal links on the site work. If you are at all interested then your patience will be rewarded. It is a simple enough matter to make use of any browser translation facility, even if the translation does not correspond exactly. Probably the main words where you might hit problems are accordage which means tuning, and occasion which means used or secondhand.

So if you dont know your americain from Michael Caine, then here is an opportunity to find out. You may be surprised to discover that there is a whole lot more to these accordions than people realise, and they are very much specialised instruments, essentially made for the various styles of French music. Thats why they are seldom available outside of France.

I would stress that I have no connections with the business concerned, and it just so happens that in my opinion their website offers fairly comprehensive info on French accordions, even if it is not brimming over with glossy photos.

You will also be able to get an idea of how much they cost. Youll see that the occasion instruments sometimes have a price range rather than a fixed price. That appears to be just be a guide as to within what price range they are prepared to haggle, depending on possible trade-ins etc.

It should also be noted that some of the instruments listed may be obtained elsewhere at much cheaper prices. As I say Im not in the business of helping them to sell their instruments, and have merely used their website as an example of what is available and what the typical cost may be.

https://www.mon-accordeon.com/accueil

 

[debra]

To me a french accordion is one with the keyboard close to the body, a large decorative metal grille, and the register switches hidden behind the keyboard. As for tuning, a french musette has a rather light tremolo (less than german tuning).
A video that demonstrates the typical sound of a french accordion is <YOUTUBE id=3YT7ScV55C0 url=></YOUTUBE>
and as an illustration:
<YOUTUBE id=mS6KNsmMfhY url=></YOUTUBE> is clearly not it, although it is the same piece played in a similar way. The sound just isnt there... As always it may be difficult to determine exactly what it is in the construction of the instrument that is responsible for the typical sound.

 

[JerryPH]

As for tuning, a french musette has a rather light tremolo (less than german tuning).

Really? I always thought that German tuning was less aggressive than French. Oh wait, there are 2 kinds of German tuning, right? Steirisch style accordions and other accordions. I know Steirisch tuning is VERY aggressive but looking at almost the entire rest of the Hohner line, it has what is commonly known as dry tuning. I know the tuning on my Morino is very conservative.

 

[losthobos]

Thankyou debra..i had that first video years ago in my favorites on youtube but the video was taken down...you've no idea how happy you've made me by replacing it <EMOJI seq="1f60a">?</EMOJI>

 

[maugein96]

Thanks for those two comparison videos Paul.

The strange names of the duo reflect the fact that they are Basques.

I once read that Cavagnolo used a special formula compound to construct their body shells, and somebody said that played a part in their rather unique sound. I have been looking around to see if I could find out where I read that, but sadly the source escapes me.

Cavagnolo's trademark and default tuning on all of their instruments, except their three voice musette accordions, is what is known as "americain" in France. That is the tuning in this clip, and it can vary with the sharp tuned flute being between 1.5 (leger)and 2.5 Hz (accentue) "up" on the "juste" or straight tuned flute. To be honest it takes a very good ear to ascertain the difference, and its only when you get up towards "moderne" that some of us will begin to notice a significant difference in sound.

French tuners tend to work in Hz up to a maximum of 6Hz, or even higher, which is "tape the windows up" musette.

There are 10 basic categories of 2 and 3 voice accordion tuning, although even then there is scope for variation, and all the subtleties are beyond my knowledge and/or understanding.

 

[losthobos]

French accordions.....nailed not waxed in reeds....

 

[maugein96]

Terry,

That is indeed a factor, although I seem to recall reading that some Russian and Italian makers also routinely nail their reeds rather than wax them. Certainly the Piermarias and some other Italian made accordions for the French market are so treated, as you'll be aware. There was a public outcry in France years ago when the media revealed that calf hide was being used in accordion construction (reeds pinned on leather), and I'm not sure how they got around that one.

It is probably a combination of various factors that go to make up that "French" sound. Cavagnolo started building accordions around the same basic body shell they came up with in 1949, and it has never changed. The instruments being played today that have "americain" tuning have that same sound as those used by players in the 50s and 60s.

 

[donn]

To me a french accordion is one with the keyboard close to the body, a large decorative metal grille, and the register switches hidden behind the keyboard.

Id give you 1 out of 3!

Close to the body?

This accordion has a feature that I have been imagining is peculiar to the French, observe the grille behind the keyboard. It sets the keyboard forward from the back by only a little bit, but isnt that a little bit more than standard? On my Fratelli Crosio, its closer to 4 cm than 3.

The grille? It may be more true of accordions produced today, to the extent that only a couple makers survive - Cavagnolo, Piermaria - but wait, Piermaria is now in SEM, and look at this one that someone has been trying to sell on ebay for years - its pure French:


As is the one above, an older Maugein, and youd see plain slot cut-out grilles on old Fratelli Crosios.

It isnt very obvious in this picture, but one visible feature I think is pretty reliable, is the fungo (mushroom) buttons on the left (bass) side. If it has those, it will likely have the French style 3+3 Stradella; if it has the straight pegs, it will be standard 2+4 -- but Im only guessing at this!

 

[debra]

As for tuning, a french musette has a rather light tremolo (less than german tuning).

Really? I always thought that German tuning was less aggressive than French. Oh wait, there are 2 kinds of German tuning, right? Steirisch style accordions and other accordions. I know Steirisch tuning is VERY aggressive but looking at almost the entire rest of the Hohner line, it has what is commonly known as dry tuning. I know the tuning on my Morino is very conservative.

I should have been more specific... I have seen definitions with German = 14 cents, Italian = 16 cents, French = 20 cents (some even say 24 cents) so the definition contradicts what I said.
But in practice the Hohner instruments (mostly Morino IV style, not V or VI) have 18 cents in reality and the Italians I have seen have at least 18 cents as well. But when you listen to the tremolo register on french cba instruments the tremolo is often much more subtle than that. So I guess the French at least nowadays use a tuning that is much less wet than the old definition says.
Here is an example of the old style wet french musette:
<YOUTUBE id=_OtKtbJ3p6c url=></YOUTUBE>
But this is how it is done now:
<YOUTUBE id=rfy1oILZ2dE url=></YOUTUBE>
Most of the wetness is gone and the musette actually sounds great with this very subtle tremolo.

 

[maugein96]

Nice pics Donn,

You have obviously discovered that there are variations on the theme. You can actually get accordions with those "mushroom" bass buttons in 4x2, although they are built to order. I have three of them, although they were all made for UK players who would have specified that arrangement over the usual French 3x3. A Scottish dealer, who is sadly no more, imported maybe about 20 instruments from the French makers Cavagnolo and Maugein, although only the Cavas were 4x2. He had a 3x3 Piermaria which I had hoped to buy, but somebody beat me to it. I tried finding it for years, but am led to believe it ended up in Ireland. A very few Irish players use French CBAs for Irish trad, if they don't want musette instruments.

 

[maugein96]

My three voice Cavagnolo Bal Musette has the flat flute at -20 cents and the sharp flute is 23 cents (ouch!).

Three voice Maugein Mini Sonora on two voice "celeste" coupler is 9.7 cents (typical modern French sound)

Two voice Hohner Nova is 16.4 cents (quite pleasant "musette" to my ears) Instrument was built for French market.

Three voice Marinucci on two voice "swing" coupler is 8.2 cents. Not a particularly French sound although I don't know who commissioned the accordion to be built.

 

[debra]

My three voice Cavagnolo Bal Musette has the flat flute at -20 cents and the sharp flute is 23 cents (ouch!).

Three voice Maugein Mini Sonora on two voice celeste coupler is 9.7 cents (typical modern French sound)

Two voice Hohner Nova is 16.4 cents (quite pleasant musette to my ears) Instrument was built for French market.

Three voice Marinucci on two voice swing coupler is 8.2 cents. Not a particularly French sound although I dont know who commissioned the accordion to be built.

Combining the three voices at -20, 0 and +23 must be painful to the ear!
The two voice celeste with 9.7 cents sound much more like what is now more popular for a french sound than the very wet MM setting that were popular long ago.
8.2 sounds not too far off but the difference between say 8 and 10 cents is very obvious to the ear.

 

[donn]

You have obviously discovered that there are variations on the theme.

The under-the-keyboard grill might be the most interesting variation, in that it's part of an interior design that (if I'm right) is also unusual, a sort of faux cassotto. I have only my old Fratelli Crosio to go on - the Cavagnolo doesn't have it, though the keyboard is still attached slightly forward of the back, so if you lay it on its back the keyboard doesn't touch the ground.

 

[maugein96]

Donn,

That grille is called a "peigne arriere", and was perhaps most common on Cavagnolo LMMM boxes, although the system was also used by Maugein, and perhaps some other makers. It was indeed developed to enhance the sound of the bassoon reeds, falling just short of cassotto. It involves the use of additional valves relative to the bassoon reeds when a treble button is depressed with the bassoon register selected, and the sound from those valves was emitted through the extra grille on the rear of the treble keyboard. They even developed a "double peigne arriere", which involved the use of yet a third row of valves, but I've read that this made the weight of the accordion too uncomfortable. The comparison with "pain in the a***", (delete an asterisk if you are on the west side of the Atlantic) would probably apply in the event of anything going wrong with it, and few people would want that doubled!

You can still find them in France, but the instruments concerned will be pretty ancient (possibly as old as me).

There is a full explanation of how it all works on the website I've highlighted in the OP, although it is pretty heavy reading, even in translate mode.

 

[maugein96]

Paul,

That Cavagnolo has a terrible sound indeed. When I bought it I hadn't been playing very long and knew considerably less about French boxes than I do now. I called in at the shop here in Scotland and was presented with three supposedly identical accordions to choose from. Unfortunately I went along with the suggestions by staff in the shop that the model I bought was the best sounding instrument of the three. I should have followed my instinct and gone for another with a less powerful musette and quicker keyboard. A few months after I bought it I realised what had happened, but too late. The shop staff were used to the sound of Scottish musette, and the one they suggested I should buy was the closest to that tuning on the display.

Yes, the difference between the 8.2 cent Marinucci and the 9.7 cent Maugein is very noticeable. I just wish they were tuned the other way around!

I checked the tunings using the trial version of Dirk's tuner you referred to in another post, although I was only able to do that on the A reed which corresponds to the diapason. I had to fiddle around with the settings to get the A442Hz on the Maugein, although the other three are all more or less A440Hz. You are probably aware that French tuners work in Hz rather than cents, and I originally used their formula of cents = 4xHz, until I realised the tuner worked in cents as well! Brilliant app, but I don't think I'd ever need the full version at the price.

 

[debra]

Dirk's accordion tuner is extremely useful when tuning an accordion because it allows to check multiple reeds at the same time so you can see whether LM or MH are indeed dry and whether MM and/or MMM have the right tremolo. It occasionally has an issue recognizing MM when one reed is in cassotto, but that's my only slight issue with it.
For checking one reed at a time you can use DaTuner Lite on a phone. You can easily set the reference frequency (like 440Hz or 442Hz) and it is very accurate (and free).
The right tremolo is a very personal choice, but the high days of extremely wet tuning are definitely over. This doesn't mean that there is no more use for MMM, quite the contrary: it allows to vary the amount of wetness, but with the -20 and +24 the choice is only between very wet and extremely wet...

 

[donn]

That grille is called a "peigne arriere", and was perhaps most common on Cavagnolo LMMM boxes, although the system was also used by Maugein, and perhaps some other makers. It was indeed developed to enhance the sound of the bassoon reeds, falling just short of cassotto. It involves the use of additional valves relative to the bassoon reeds when a treble button is depressed with the bassoon register selected, and the sound from those valves was emitted through the extra grille on the rear of the treble keyboard. They even developed a "double peigne arriere", which involved the use of yet a third row of valves, but I've read that this made the weight of the accordion too uncomfortable.

Yes, now that I look at that page I'm reminded that I've been there before, but I imagine I dismissed that "additional valve" part of the explanation since it makes no sense to me - how does a reed come to have additional valves?

In my Fratelli Crosio, the mechanism serves an obvious (though not obviously useful) purpose, as it drives the octave bassoon - same bassoon reed bank, two different reeds an octave apart if both sets of rappels are engaged. Some day I should pull that thing apart again and see, if these are really additional valves and the bassoon reed also has a normal hinged valve like the rest, just how that works. In any case, that assembly in my accordion has been a source of trouble and frustration for players and repairmen alike.

When I got the accordion, that rear grill was taped over. I removed the tape, don't think I noticed much difference.

 

[debra]

To Donn and Maugein96...
The grille behind the keyboard is nowadays also used quite often on Italian CBA accordions that have the keyboard moved forward. That includes all "bayan style" instruments, but not the non-convertor instruments. I have found that indeed it does not make much difference on the Italian boxes. (I have used not one but many of them. A "real" Russian bayan does not have this but an Italian typically does (including the Pigini Sirius bayan).

The term "valves" regarding the couplers that add an extra L reed (different octave) first confused me. This technique has now largely disappeared on the keyboard side of new accordions. It is still used in the bass side of (convertor) accordions. These normally have only LM for the base notes but with one or two couplers you can add one or two extra reeds. Some of these mechanisms are a bit error prone (i.e. should not be used while bass buttons are pressed). You can easily learn to not press bass buttons while operating couplers (or the convertor switch). But people are probably more likely to occasionally engage a keyboard-side coupler while playing a note. I don't know if Donn's "declassement" mechanism is error-prone in this way or not.

 

[maugein96]

Thanks Paul,

I tried to work out the technical explanation on mon-accordeon website, but having never owned or played a peigne arierre instrument I couldn't quite get to grips with it. The suggestion that extra valves were involved confused me too.

I quickly came to the conclusion that I'd never bother trying to find such an instrument.

On my Maugein Mini Sonora, you need to make sure you don't have any treble buttons pressed when you change to the bassoon register on its own, as you won't get any sound at all for a second or two if you do. I have no idea why that is so, and have never come across that before. It may have something to do with Maugein's cassotto being "flat" rather than being at the normal right angle. If you select "plein jeu" (all three voices) or "bando" (bassoon and straight flute), the flute(s) will sound straight away, but there is a slight delay until the bassoon reeds kick in.

Even on instruments where there is no cassotto, Maugein's rear mounted CBA coupler switches are pretty stiff and awkward to operate compared with other makes. Mid tune coupler changes are not really for the faint of heart, unless there is a suitable pause in the tune, and even then the click as the couplers engage is pretty loud. Another complaint about them in the French forums is their tendency to be on the heavy side, especially the older models. Mine is pretty heavy at about 11kg for a three voice 96 bass.

I still maintain that Italian made "French" accordions are probably the best option, and Piermaria would be my first choice. They have been making them for long enough to get it absolutely spot on for the French market, and used to have a French assembly and repair facility in rue Charenton in Paris, which also doubled as a shop. Technically they are probably as "French" as Cavagnolo, which was established by Italians of that surname from Piedmont, when they opened up their factory in Lyon in 1904.

 

[donn]

I believe my Fratelli Crosio is of Italian manufacture, and the Cavagnolo's switches are much easier. I never noticed the interference between switch and treble buttons - but I wouldn't, as awkward as the switches were, I was discouraged from trying operate them while playing in any case. I would guess that if there's any general principle that accounts for the difference, it might be that the Fratelli Crosio is at least a decade older. Piermaria would be high on my list if I needed an accordion and money were no object, though.