What is your favorite mic system?

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

I'm curious what have been people's experience with various accordion mic systems. I've installed and used several kinds, and they are always problematic. Feedback is, of course, a huge problem, and I've yet to find one that works with a loud band. Also, the bellows cable always fails at some point. It seems the cumulative motion inevitably degrades the cable, either causing the bass mic to cut out or, if the battery is on the bass side, the whole system to fail. Has no one built a system with the bass mic connected wirelessly? What brands are best for reducing feedback? I've heard good things about Harmonik, but haven't tried them myself.

 

[debra]

I'm curious what have been people's experience with various accordion mic systems. I've installed and used several kinds, and they are always problematic. Feedback is, of course, a huge problem, and I've yet to find one that works with a loud band. Also, the bellows cable always fails at some point. It seems the cumulative motion inevitably degrades the cable, either causing the bass mic to cut out or, if the battery is on the bass side, the whole system to fail. Has no one built a system with the bass mic connected wirelessly? What brands are best for reducing feedback? I've heard good things about Harmonik, but haven't tried them myself.

Judging by what I have read and samples heard Harmonik may be a very good choice. But it too uses a zig-zag cable going through the bellows, so if that is considered problematic it is no exception to the others. I use a cheap mic from Carini (in Castelfidardo) to capture the sound of my bass accordion and have no problems with that, but the bass accordion only has a treble side (with only low notes), so no cable going through.
I have played a normal accordion with amplification and for that I have always used the Microvox system, which uses a bar with mics attached to the grille with velcro (on the outside) and a single mic on the bass side (also attached with velcro) so the cable between them runs on the outside (hanging loose). No issues with the cable (other than with connectors which need to be good quality), and the battery is also external. But... in terms of feedback it may be less good than mics installed under the grille and inside the bass compartment. Still... I have not had any significant feedback issues there. (I try not to amplify so loudly that the audience will suffer from tinnitus after my performance.)

 

[jozz]

for a loud dynamic band I use these:
https://www.ebay.com/usr/midifisa

They are in the box in my profile picture. The builder uses slightly beefier connectors that are nicely soldered. They have more gain before feedback than the Sennheiser system / Musictech strips etc.

For my main acoustic accordeon I use Sennheiser MT-05 internals. Through the years they have suffered a bit. The connector going from bellows to bass-side suffers the most. From factory they are a weak connection (cut inserts, no solder), so either you reinsert the wires now and again or you solder them.

I mostly use IEM, but if not I will not feedback easily. I run my gain pots at 30-40%. Some people tend to turn them up 100% (like a gitarist), this is when problems arise.

 

[Mr Mark]

Older thread but what the hay. I have tried so many mic systems it isn't funny. The best for extremely loud bands has been an SM58 hacked apart and glued inside my accordion with an XLR chassis plug. The trade off is hiss from having to crank the gain, plus it doesn't actually solve the feedback issue but it makes things less problematic that way. I always monitor beside me into a small battery powered amp that I use a XLR Y splitter with to double the signal and therefore double the output, never monitor in the floor (or else feedback). In ears might be better but I also sing and have found in ears while singing and playing accordion to be extremely difficult to work with. In the process of working with a few different things to help mitigate further issues, such as; eq and compression. At the end of the day I have abandoned the idea of emulating great quality sound in favour of just being heard, but, that is only the case for when playing in extremely loud environments. I refuse to use a Roland live but ultimately that is probably the best option for said situation, at least in my experience.

 

[JerryPH]

Older thread but what the hay. I have tried so many mic systems it isn't funny. The best for extremely loud bands has been an SM58 hacked apart and glued inside my accordion with an XLR chassis plug. The trade off is hiss from having to crank the gain, plus it doesn't actually solve the feedback issue but it makes things less problematic that way.

Have you ever considered adding an integrated CloudLifter and activating phantom power? Eliminates the hiss issue due to overdriving the mixer output and adds volume.

 

[Mr Mark]

Have you ever considered adding an integrated CloudLifter and activating phantom power? Eliminates the hiss issue due to overdriving the mixer output and adds volume.

Somewhere along the way I have aquired a Fethead and will have to play with that again to see, but from what I recall, it has to do with turning up the gain high enough to pick up the reeds farthest away from the mic (about 12") well enough. To this end I have had to install baffles around the reeds closest to the mic to keep those from overpowering the mix. Thanks for jogging the memory to go through my pile of microphone gear though lol, you have to keep trying things!

 

[JerryPH]

Somewhere along the way I have aquired a Fethead and will have to play with that again to see, but from what I recall, it has to do with turning up the gain high enough to pick up the reeds farthest away from the mic (about 12") well enough. To this end I have had to install baffles around the reeds closest to the mic to keep those from overpowering the mix. Thanks for jogging the memory to go through my pile of microphone gear though lol, you have to keep trying things!

One of the biggest challenges has always been mic placement and here I am going to toss out an idea... placing the mic INSIDE the accordion. In that location one has a lot more options in terms of mic placement and can really "tune" volume by simply placing them closer to the higher or lower pitched reeds.

Here is what some people will tell you:
- you won't be able to pick up any bass sounds. That is false. In fact you will at around -3 to -4 DB less which just by coincidence is EXACTLY how one would adjust the faders if you were setting up multiple external mics.

- You won't have individual control or stereo. True. Are you one of the people that NEED this?

- as you pull the bellows further apart the bass volume drops. True, but the reality is that I measured a *1db* drop in volume after many tests. Most people won't be able to tell that this happened and it happens on only the widest of extensions of the bellows of a full sized accordion (ie: these tests were done on my Hohner Morino VI N). Bellows are also a way hat the sound becomes slightly more mellow and I like that. An EQ adjustment on the mixer can change that if you don't.

- It will make the accordion MORE susceptible to feedback. False. The mics have a physical battier to external sounds and in terms of feedback THIS is the best method to use if feedback elimination is your goal.

- Placing the mics inside will increase "clatter" and noise. False. All the big "noise producers" are on the outside and those sounds are near completely eliminated with placing mics inside.

- Moving it to another box is harder. True. If this works for you, and you like it, just do the same to a 2nd accordion and done.

A consideration: Connector type is important, we are making a hole to the inside of the accordion. If not perfectly sealed air loss is possible. The best material that I ever saw was a a material similar to silicone, EXCEPT that it was designed to seal air gaps around doors and windows and was easy to pull off. Used in this scenario, it would perfectly seal the plug and yet still be removable if needed. I don't recall the name of the product.

Now, all that said, a Fethead or CloudLifter is not the only solution. One can purchase an external preamp and connect it at the mixer side. This offers the flexibility of using XLR or 1/4" connectors. I was paying with this and had good results before I decided that I wanted to go the route of dual external mics for my studio. It works, and works well!

I'm still open to doing some more research and was thinking about buying a Shure SM-50 capsule along with the below pre-amp. It might surprise me!

 

[Ventura]

i will just again mention the large diaphram dynamic element used in the
Shure green bullet is readily available as a repair part from Shure

i had also noticed there is currently offered a large diaphram electret mic
element (Amazon) which looks promising (i picked one up, but have not
yet gotten to the experiment) there are also a multitude of tiny low-cost
pre-made pre-amp circuits also on Amazon which also look promising

i happen to have a few barcusBerry Pre-Amp's laying around from when
Musicorp clearanced them out ages ago which have phantom power included
at 9 volts, so i use them for experiments and occasionally build one in to something

 

[Mr Mark]

One of the biggest challenges has always been mic placement and here I am going to toss out an idea... placing the mic INSIDE the accordion. In that location one has a lot more options in terms of mic placement and can really "tune" volume by simply placing them closer to the higher or lower pitched reeds.

Here is what some people will tell you:
- you won't be able to pick up any bass sounds. That is false. In fact you will at around -3 to -4 DB less which just by coincidence is EXACTLY how one would adjust the faders if you were setting up multiple external mics.

- You won't have individual control or stereo. True. Are you one of the people that NEED this?

- as you pull the bellows further apart the bass volume drops. True, but the reality is that I measured a *1db* drop in volume after many tests. Most people won't be able to tell that this happened and it happens on only the widest of extensions of the bellows of a full sized accordion (ie: these tests were done on my Hohner Morino VI N). Bellows are also a way hat the sound becomes slightly more mellow and I like that. An EQ adjustment on the mixer can change that if you don't.

- It will make the accordion MORE susceptible to feedback. False. The mics have a physical battier to external sounds and in terms of feedback THIS is the best method to use if feedback elimination is your goal.

- Placing the mics inside will increase "clatter" and noise. False. All the big "noise producers" are on the outside and those sounds are near completely eliminated with placing mics inside.

- Moving it to another box is harder. True. If this works for you, and you like it, just do the same to a 2nd accordion and done.

A consideration: Connector type is important, we are making a hole to the inside of the accordion. If not perfectly sealed air loss is possible. The best material that I ever saw was a a material similar to silicone, EXCEPT that it was designed to seal air gaps around doors and windows and was easy to pull off. Used in this scenario, it would perfectly seal the plug and yet still be removable if needed. I don't recall the name of the product.

Now, all that said, a Fethead or CloudLifter is not the only solution. One can purchase an external preamp and connect it at the mixer side. This offers the flexibility of using XLR or 1/4" connectors. I was paying with this and had good results before I decided that I wanted to go the route of dual external mics for my studio. It works, and works well!

I'm still open to doing some more research and was thinking about buying a Shure SM-50 capsule along with the below pre-amp. It might surprise me!

Yes, I have installed the microphone inside the accordion. In almost every instance I have done this it has ended up in the treble section as there was more room there - the bass section and reeds are not recessed as the treble section usually is. I end up using an XLR chassis plug and a rather large hole - this is where I have really come to appreciate my hot glue gun, it really seals up any holes quite well and is great for dealing with pesky wires wanting to entangle with the reeds (Also, when installing to the treble section I do not need to worry about wires caught in the bellows!). I usually will dab a bit on the screws and custom bracketing I use to install the mic to ensure the do not become loose over time, and prevent any rattling of things. Finally, I will make baffles out of cardboard and glue them in where necessary to tame unruly reeds. Hot glue is also relatively easy to peel off if you get it wrong.

I like the idea of the ART tube pre...may pick one up and see.

For whatever reason my FEThead will not work in conjunction with a Y cable. The things you learn.

I do find the bass volume change significant enough that I do not use a full range of bellows on quieter passages. But for the most part the stuff I'm playing doesn't fit that bill so it isn't really an issue.

Here are some photos of the last one I did some time ago. I ended up with a small lot of Behringer 57's, they are so close to an SM57 that I cannot tell the difference but they are significantly cheaper and don't require a transformer.

Sacrilege I know, but it definitely gets the job done a lot better than any of the condensers I have tried in the past (FEEDBACK).

This is also my live setup, and while I might use this to some degree recording, I would definitely get the bulk of sounds from a pair of room mics.

i will just again mention the large diaphram dynamic element used in the
Shure green bullet is readily available as a repair part from Shure

i had also noticed there is currently offered a large diaphram electret mic
element (Amazon) which looks promising (i picked one up, but have not
yet gotten to the experiment) there are also a multitude of tiny low-cost
pre-made pre-amp circuits also on Amazon which also look promising

i happen to have a few barcusBerry Pre-Amp's laying around from when
Musicorp clearanced them out ages ago which have phantom power included
at 9 volts, so i use them for experiments and occasionally build one in to something

I actually bought one of those large diaphram Green Bullets as per your idea a few years ago, but have yet to find an accordion it will fit in - those mics are quite large! (until an old eastern block Welty showed up a few days ago, the inside of that thing is like the trunk of an old cadillac!!!)...It'll be interesting to check it out but I wonder how effective it will be considering most mouth harpers I see using it are moving the mic to fit the reed they are currently playing...Oh well, fun to experiment!

 

[kimric]

I designed a mic system awhile back that I carry. My main angle was making something that would fit in most accordions but that this means that you have to actually do some wiring and soldering. It did use what I learned working at Seagate about building wiring harnesses to last. I am able to use flat ribbon cable through the bellows (lasts a looong time) since the bass signal is preamped before it heads to the right side, its also means that the system can be used as two separate systems if you want.
having the mics on both sides of the instrument with separate volume allows you to do things like use full bass on the left and piccolo on the right, you can balance it with the pots to get a even volume out of the amp.

 

[Ventura]

hey Kimric, nice to see you posting again
and that you are still around

ok, bass side specifically..

lots of room in the bass area alongside the mechanism and
usually next to bass strap mount is lots of room and thick wood

i take the Green Bullet and make a sandwich of innertube rubber
around it sort of with a big round hole leaving the diaphragm exposed

screw it on somewhere in there

using a shielded wire of course, braided shield Belden is toughest

on the bass button board is usually enough room for a long shank volume
potentiometer and a long-threaded 1/4" female switchcraft audio jack

if you want to be fancy, add a second pot with a tiny capacitor to have a
variable low pass tone control as well

stick a wireless (guitarist type) transmitter in the hole

transmit to a receiver plugged into a graphic EQ pedal or Bass Booster pedal
of the type an actual Fender Electric Bass player would use

amplify to the moon and play Rock and Roll till 4am in Georgetown

potentiometers that are stepped are best because they won't drift from vibration

(sidebar.. back when i Rocked we didn't have wireless so i had 2 big long-assed
cables from my Accordion to the Ampeg Olympian, which dwarfed my guitar players
Marshall quad)

once you are capturing big fat Bass frequencies in this manner you can
do all kinds of crAZY things with outboard pedals.. chorusing your BASS
and even a WahWah works.. if you play German/Volks/Slavko/Polka
very much i wanna tell you you this kind of huge sounding Bass fits nicely
on stage and easily cuts through the mix and noise at a Blobs park Oktoberfest

modern pedals you could even add a bit of sustain or try a Boss Octaver

i built bass mic setups like this into my red Serenelli, an older Excelsior,
and the Gola..

beyond that, truth is i don't amplify the bass reeds for anything else..
no need with a Roland or Midi which gives you an upright bass
and Rhodes chords.. suitable for most all other types of Music..
so my MIDI boxes only have the famous Master Sennheisers on the treble side

for strolling gigs, again frankly i never found any need to amplify the
Bass at all, as the treble side is only gently amplified and reverb'd
wirelessly, and the natural bass bleedthrough sends a hint through the
Speakers and is all that i ever need.. in other words the Bass is l;oud
enough on it's own

playing with Backgrounds, MIDI files, as i have done for decades now,
all my files are tweaked so the bass notes i add are mostly for
rhythmic emphasis and visible re-inforcment of a song for the listener,
again i only amplify the treble reeds live

on a few accordions i mounted the Sennheiser rail under the grille,
mostly i have several "rails" i strap on the outside of the grille with
little bungee like chords (i had a LOT of accordions in the Gig rotation)

i also eventually began building my own Sennheiser clones using
unidirectional Panasonic elements with some success.. CEMEX used them too.

final note, if you want a massive Bass tone, you also need massive quality
15" speaker components and powerful amplification that won't fade from
long held or rapid note combinations.. in my arsenal over the years were
classic Altec and jim Lansing alinco 15"ers, then a JBL 145 for the Cordovox,,
and more recently an Eminence Kappalite neodymium (bass tuned voice coil model)

with a great audio system, an acoustic Accordion can hold it's own from
in a gadda da vida through Sunshine of your Love to Green Onions
and Black is Black and no-one on the dance floor will even notice or care
you are using Reeds not Strings.

now i think i will go out in the Studio and riff on "Iron Man" for a few
just for old times sake..