Tune accordions sharp so that they stand out in group playing - A myth?

[pitzelberger]

I am reading this repeatedly in various forums and resources on the web: accordions being turned sharp so that they stand out in group playing. Is this a myth or did this habit really exist?

I myself own accordions tuned to 440, 443 and 444. All of them bought second hand and some of them quite old. I always thought the single reason for their various tuning is that 440 only recently became the single standard for concert tuning (at least in western music).

 

[Dingo40]

This may be relevant?

Video: How A 440 Became Standard Concert Pitch | WFMT

Surprisingly, Chicago's Ravenswood neighborhood is at the center of this musical standard.

www.wfmt.com

 

[debra]

Yes, an accordion tuned sharp will stand out in group playing: it will stand out like a sore thumb!
It's not always that bad though: When say 5 people play an accordion: 1 playing MM with a mild (up) tremolo and 43 with just M then the accordion with MM will stand out despite the other 4 theoretically producing more sound volume. The MM register makes the accordion produce an "average" sound that is mid-way between the dry M and the M tuned up. Yet even though that average makes MM sound a bit higher, you don't notice it as being higher, only as being louder.
I do play in an accordion quintet where one accordion (Pigini) is tuned 442 and the others are tuned 440 and we mostly use dry-tuned registers and there the 442-accordion stands out like a sore thumb and we are considering replacing it because together it just sounds bad.

 

[TomBR]

I have an A442 accordion, it's a nice box but it's impossible to play with my wife's A440 concertina - just sounds awful!

 

[pitzelberger]

Right, an accordion will stand out if tuned sharp. What I have read repeatedly and what I am challenging is, that accordionists had intentionally tuned their accordion sharp just to stand out. E.g knowing that everybody in they will play with has their instrument tuned to 440 they decided to tune their accordion to 443 just to be heard better. This feels to me more like a shady sales pitch, when you want to sell today one of those old sharp tuned accordions.

 

[debra]

Right, an accordion will stand out if tuned sharp. What I have read repeatedly and what I am challenging is, that accordionists had intentionally tuned their accordion sharp just to stand out. E.g knowing that everybody in they will play with has their instrument tuned to 440 they decided to tune their accordion to 443 just to be heard better. This feels to me more like a shady sales pitch, when you want to sell today one of those old sharp tuned accordions.

I have never heard of an accordionist asking for a higher tuning in order to stand out. The reality is a much sadder story...
When you go to a dealer to order a new accordion the dealer will never ask what base frequency you want it tuned at. 99.9% of the customers have no idea what the tuning should be or that there is even a choice. So the dealer cannot ask the customer because then the customer gets confused and walks out without buying anything. The result is that the accordion will be delivered with whatever is the default tuning used by the manufacturer. If you order a new Pigini or Victoria for instance you will receive an accordion tuned to 442Hz. If you order a Bugari you will receive 440Hz. I don't know the default of others... but whatever the default is, unless you ask very explitely you will not be told what it will be.

 

[Ventura]

accordionists are notoriously cheap.. they can hardly be made to
pay to get their tuning touched up much less pay a ton of money
to have an entire instrument tuned sharp just for the fun of it ?

hehehe

but seriously, tuning is about accuracy, and accuracy is necessary
or it will NOT sound good, and if your world of accompanists is A-440
then that's the standard you tune to, whether Just, Werkmeister, Pythagorean,
or whatever temprament you prefer or wish to experiment with

(Many Rolands can select between a number of tempraments, and
actually you can digitally craft your own if you have a month to spend on it)

those of us who spent many years gigging Organ Accordions learned that
accuracy was critical, because electronic keyboards are unforgiving when
sound is mixed with reeds, and you can really mess everyone else up too
if you are not at a-440.. even the guitar player, or Violinist, whose
ears have been trained well and who's skills allow them to tune on
the fly will HATE you if you suddenly force a sharp tuned accordion on them

even playing with background accompaniments, you can quickly hear
if your backing tracks machine is set to a-440 how good your a-440
accordion blends in.. now switch to some old sharp tuned accordion and try
again.. OUCH

 

[dunlustin]

Five minutes to spare? This might be worth reading:

Concert pitch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And did you know?
(Most) instruments are tuned at standard concert pitch (440 Hz), whilst a bagpipe is tuned around 470–480 Hz

 

[pitzelberger]

OK, so it seems more like a myth.

Just two examples where I have heard this:

Borsini Accordion Tuning

Borsini Accordion Tuning

www.maestroaccordions.com

Some may have an accordion with an overall tuning that sounds sharp. Most Americans desire a 440 tuning which puts their accordion in perfect tune with the band. In Europe, the players like their accordions tuned to 442 or 443 so that they are able to stand out from the band.

Accordion tuning

For almost 60 years I have never played with other musicians so as long as my accordion sounded OK I have never had to worry about the exact tuning. I recently bought a Sonola Sorbonne 96 bass instrument with a few notes needing attention and bought a Korg tuner to investigate. This suggests...

www.accordionists.info

The reasoning for the 442 tuning came from many years ago when there was no amplification and the accordion at 440 had no presence when played with other musical instruments. Tuning to 442 gave them presence and took the place of sound volume.

 

[JIM D.]

442 tuning became a standard in the US back in the 40's. And yes it was for presence when played with
other instruments. Unless ordered with a different tuning all Italian imports to the US came 442.

 

[debra]

OK, so it seems more like a myth.

Just two examples where I have heard this:

Borsini Accordion Tuning

Borsini Accordion Tuning

www.maestroaccordions.com

Accordion tuning

For almost 60 years I have never played with other musicians so as long as my accordion sounded OK I have never had to worry about the exact tuning. I recently bought a Sonola Sorbonne 96 bass instrument with a few notes needing attention and bought a Korg tuner to investigate. This suggests...

www.accordionists.info

Two examples of myths indeed. But that's just what they are: myths.
442Hz has become popular with string instruments, because that string instruments play louder when tuned higher is not a myth but a fact. But... tune them up a lot higher and they will simply go with a loud bang (or cracking sound). Take a piano from 100 years ago and try to tune it up to 442... bang!
For an accordion, tuning it up makes the notes sound a bit higher, but that's it. It doesn't add presence or volume.

 

[debra]

Five minutes to spare? This might be worth reading:

Concert pitch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And did you know?
(Most) instruments are tuned at standard concert pitch (440 Hz), whilst a bagpipe is tuned around 470–480 Hz

A bagpipe is tuned about one and a quarter note high. So you can compensate a bit by playing everything one note higher and ask the bagpipe player to tune down as much as he can (without the pipes coming apart). Not that it matters much because when other instruments play together with a single bagpipe player all you hear is the bagpipe. And if you forgot your earplugs soon you will hear just a constant high pitch sound in your ears day and night... (tinitus)...

 

[Dingo40]

What a schemozle!
Very interesting overview.
All I personally know is, playing with instruments that have mismatched tuning generally sounds terrible, to my ears at least!

 

[JIM D.]

I agree that 442 is not louder of 440 = But it has more presence.
An Orchestra that uses 12 Violins that has 11 tuned 440 and the 1 tuned 442 will most certainly have the presence.
The same applies to horns & woodwinds.

 

[Ffingers]

Let me tell you a tail, not about accordions, but still instruments in different tune:
A certain local "Big Band" was entertaining a crowd in a large barn in a town on our South coast; it was, as usual one of those warm days which cool off quite quickly as night descends.
There was a mid-concert interval where the players were offered drinks and nibbles and, having refreshed themselves, they duly returned to the platfom to continue their gig.
The problem was that they did not re-tune nor warm their instruments which had, due to the change in temperature, gone "off" somewhat.
The resulting exodus of several of the audience members seemed to surprise many of the band members.
Why they continued with the cacophany that they were producing, especially from the brass which was now on varied pitches across all of the instruments, without warming/retuning them I have no idea.

 

[Siegmund]

An Orchestra that uses 12 Violins that has 11 tuned 440 and the 1 tuned 442...

...will only have 11 violinists in it next week.

 

[losthobos]

I've had a beautifully constructed Bugari that shouted out at 446hz..sounded so sweet alone but disasterous alongside a piano..
My Piermaria and Maugien almost sneak under the radar at 442..
My Elkavox which I'm in total rapture with the tone of has just revealed itself to be tuned at 444..discovered at gig with two guitars last week .. thankfully they were happy to tune up and I can't stand backing tracks..
If playing with any fixed tuned instrument I'd advise strongly checking their tuning or taking them with you when considering buying another accordion..

 

[Dingo40]

This is getting serious!

 

[Pipemajor]

A bagpipe is tuned about one and a quarter note high. So you can compensate a bit by playing everything one note higher and ask the bagpipe player to tune down as much as he can (without the pipes coming apart). Not that it matters much because when other instruments play together with a single bagpipe player all you hear is the bagpipe. And if you forgot your earplugs soon you will hear just a constant high pitch sound in your ears day and night... (tinitus)...

I think I may have mentioned this before but the reason modern bagpipes (GHB) are tuned so high is all because of the RSPBA competitions.
A century or so ago bagpipes were tuned (?) to a more reasonable 440 ish but then, competitions were more amateur and mainly relied on the piping skills, complemented by all wooden drums which had animal hide skins and were tensioned with cords.
Nowadays top grade competitions are professional with large sponsorship involvement and because of this, the drums are now made from high tensile alloys and Kevlar skins so that they can be tuned so high they sound like rifle shots and of course, the first ones stood out from the rest so they all followed suite, (a bit like the accordions tuning high to stand out!). As a result of this the modern bagpipe makers were instructed to tune the chanters higher and higher to match in with the drums as the whole emphasis is on winning competitions and the subsequent financial rewards.
This has got to such a stage where I understand that the RSPBA authorities have called a halt and have set a limit on how high they can be tuned.
In regard to the second point Debra raised, Many years ago my pipe band were part of the Ducasse celebrations in Mons, Belgium along with many other international bands. On one occasion we ( 18 strong) were playing alongside the US Army band (50ish strong) and , on the recordings made, not a single bagpipe sound could be heard. Nowadays it is quite common for bagpipes to be miked up when recording or performing in large venues.

 

[dunlustin]

"The San Francisco Symphony (reportedly) tunes to 441 or 442 Hz
The Boston Symphony Orchestra (reportedly) tunes to 444 Hz
The New York Philharmonic (reportedly) tunes to 443 Hz
and The Berlin Philharmonic (reportedly) tunes to 445 Hz
I know there's a tendency for some European countries to tune to 442 Hz and German orchestras are among others who tune to 445 Hz.
(see here: https://music.stackexchange.com/questions )

Interesting to get a piper's view on tuning.
Difficult to believe that Loshobo's Bugari is at 446Hz by accident.
I'm not sure it's useful to talk about myths and mistakes to be corrected - see JimD's comment. I have read that solo violinists are often behind this "+2Hz to make me stand out" ploy.

There's plenty more out there - try piano tuners'
or Baroque music forums:
"a consensus has arisen around a modern baroque pitch of 415 Hz (with 440 Hz corresponding to A♯)"

Seems to me that 442 accordions are pretty standard in Europe these days and if ISO standard is 440Hz, there aren't too many people listening.
Just be grateful you don't play Anglo concertina - quarter comma mean tone tuning (???)
or English concertina which still has D# and Eb, tho' tuning is equal temperament.