+20 tuning on four accordions

[96Bass]

00:00 1986 Guerrini Oxford 3 0 / +20
00:42 2004 Beltuna Euro IV 0 / +20
01:25 2009 Beltuna Custom Euro IV 0 / +20
02:12 2023 Petosa Artista Pro -5 / +15

Reeds are outside the chamber.
Guerrini is either machine or hand finished reeds. The Beltunas are hand made reeds. The Petosa is Blue Star reeds.
In order of brightness of sound down to darkest:
1. Petosa
2. Beltuna Euro IV
3. Guerrini
4. Beltuna Custom

 

[debra]

There is a slight difference in tone between these accordions (different manufacturer, different materials, different grille...
but the tuning gives about the same tremolo on all of them. Of course you should consider that they are not tuned to perfection. I am hearing some (to me) annoying tremolo differences in the high B and/or C on some of the accordions. I fear that in terms of tremolo none of these four accordions would be approved by me as being ready to be shipped to the customer... But I guess that at least 9 out of 10 of our forum members would not notice.
And these have 20 cents tremolo... as that number goes down the tuning errors become more and more noticeable. If someone wants just 5 cents tremolo the tuning job becomes a lot harder than with 10 cents and with 20 cents you can be even less precise.
This 20 cents tremolo (or even more) used to be very common 5 or 6 decades ago. Nowadays standard Italian tuning is already down to 16, and many people prefer 12... and some prefer even lower numbers. I for instance like 8 cents.

 

[OuijaBoard]

I like 8, also like 10. A nice "violin" tremolo.

 

[96Bass]

There is a slight difference in tone between these accordions (different manufacturer, different materials, different grille...
but the tuning gives about the same tremolo on all of them. Of course you should consider that they are not tuned to perfection. I am hearing some (to me) annoying tremolo differences in the high B and/or C on some of the accordions. I fear that in terms of tremolo none of these four accordions would be approved by me as being ready to be shipped to the customer... But I guess that at least 9 out of 10 of our forum members would not notice.
And these have 20 cents tremolo... as that number goes down the tuning errors become more and more noticeable. If someone wants just 5 cents tremolo the tuning job becomes a lot harder than with 10 cents and with 20 cents you can be even less precise.
This 20 cents tremolo (or even more) used to be very common 5 or 6 decades ago. Nowadays standard Italian tuning is already down to 16, and many people prefer 12... and some prefer even lower numbers. I for instance like 8 cents.

Hello Paul,
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the video. I appreciate your ear and critique. I would guess that it is a blessing and a curse to have perfect pitch. It is great that you have such precise hearing, especially when it comes to being a master tuner. It must also be frustrating when listening to music and it doesn't sound good because you can can hear the imperfections of tuning, intonation, etc.
I would guess that I have average hearing. I really enjoy the wide variations in musette tuning. In a recent thread there were several examples of very wide musette for Scottish music. I really love that sound, for Scottish music. If the accordions were dry, it wouldn't sound right to me.
I also like the very mild musette sound as well. I mostly perform music that calls for a wider musette and the +20 is what I have gravitated to.
There are some notes on the upper octave of the Petosa that make me wince. The accordion is still in the break-in stage. It will me going back to Petosa in September to address a few minor issues and to touch up the tuning. They recommend the accordion to go through the four-seasons before addressing tuning issues, etc. on new accordions.

 

[OuijaBoard]

It's so interesting how not all tremolos of equivalent "cents" have equivalent timbre. I used to think German was more shrill versus Italian more rounded and smooth at the same musette setting, but have learned that stereotype doesn't hold. Even between Italian instruments one wet musette differs from another at purportedly equal wetness settings.

 

[Perogie]

I like them all. Probably the first and last the most. To my untrained ears they sounds very similar.

 

[debra]

It's so interesting how not all tremolos of equivalent "cents" have equivalent timbre. I used to think German was more shrill versus Italian more rounded and smooth at the same musette setting, but have learned that stereotype doesn't hold. Even between Italian instruments one wet musette differs from another at purportedly equal wetness settings.

The timbre comes from how overtones are dampened (or not) by the accordion construction, and in particular the grille, and now the base frequency of notes is amplified (or not), mainly by the construction of the reed blocks (and the resonance chambers inside). The difference in timbre can best be heard on the single M register of an accordion, but it persists through other registers ilke MM.
The tremolo is a consequence of the difference in frequency between the two M reeds. It results in a "beating" you hear and that is the same for every accordion with the same amount of difference in frequency. Timbre has no effect on it, except with cassotto accordions where the timbre and volume of the M in cassotto is radically different from that outside the cassotto. The M in cassotto dominates the M outside and that generally makes for a less smooth pleasant MM sound than when there is no cassotto.

 

[debra]

Hello Paul,
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the video. I appreciate your ear and critique. I would guess that it is a blessing and a curse to have perfect pitch. ...

Perfect pitch is both a blessing and a curse, but in this case it has nothing to do with observing whether the evolution of the tremolo as you go up the scale is "smooth". The "beating" in adjacent notes should be about the same (the differences as you go up the scale are only noticeable over a larger distance between the notes). But in some of these four accordions you hear a clear difference between beating in the high B and C.

 

[Walker]

Congratulations on the collection @96Bass, they are all lovely instruments. Lovely music too - I really like Under Paris Skies.

You know, when I look at a painting I don't tend to examine every brush-stroke, I look at the picture as a whole - enjoy the mood of the scene and the story that's being depicted, the colour combinations, the artists interpretation... you get the picture.

Likewise, with the accordion, I listen to the overall blend in a musette, across the range of notes. The focus on "cents" however, doesn't really tell a story and it gives us little information about the overall "ring" of the sound envelope and it's naunces. Having spoken to a number of tuners, I also understand that some of the more interesting musette (-M M +M) tunings are not symmetrical.​

There are many different "musette" tunings. Some in Northern Italy love the "single cassotto" accordion with its brighter musette. ByMarco used to be known for his musette tunings.

This is a fairly mild one:

 

[Tom]

Congratulations on the collection @96Bass, they are all lovely instruments. Lovely music too - I really like Under Paris Skies.

You know, when I look at a painting I don't tend to examine every brush-stroke, I look at the picture as a whole - enjoy the mood of the scene and the story that's being depicted, the colour combinations, the artists interpretation... you get the picture.

Likewise, with the accordion, I listen to the overall blend in a musette, across the range of notes. The focus on "cents" however, doesn't really tell a story and it gives us little information about the overall "ring" of the sound envelope and it's naunces. Having spoken to a number of tuners, I also understand that some of the more interesting musette (-M M +M) tunings are not symmetrical.​

There are many different "musette" tunings. Some in Northern Italy love the "single cassotto" accordion with its brighter musette. ByMarco used to be known for his musette tunings.

This is a fairly mild one:

Cool tune. I don’t usually listen to whole tunes of “many note improv” but Gianni has style along with the notes, a cool hat and viewer engagement. Plus a bunch of sweet voices as you mentioned. I miss the byMarco podcasts too.

 

[OuijaBoard]

I like them all, guess I'd choose the Guerrini, for some intangible reason. Great thread!

 

[96Bass]

Congratulations on the collection @96Bass, they are all lovely instruments. Lovely music too - I really like Under Paris Skies.

You know, when I look at a painting I don't tend to examine every brush-stroke, I look at the picture as a whole - enjoy the mood of the scene and the story that's being depicted, the colour combinations, the artists interpretation... you get the picture.

Likewise, with the accordion, I listen to the overall blend in a musette, across the range of notes. The focus on "cents" however, doesn't really tell a story and it gives us little information about the overall "ring" of the sound envelope and it's naunces. Having spoken to a number of tuners, I also understand that some of the more interesting musette (-M M +M) tunings are not symmetrical.​

There are many different "musette" tunings. Some in Northern Italy love the "single cassotto" accordion with its brighter musette. ByMarco used to be known for his musette tunings.

This is a fairly mild one:

Hey Walker, I had no intention on being a collector. I will probably start trying to sell off some of my accordions. I tend to play one accordion exclusively. Besides my main accordion I like to have a back up. Until I got the Petosa the Beltuna custom was the main accordion and the Beltuna Euro IV was the back up. It was great because they are the same accordion except for the reed configurations. Really easy to switch from one to the other.
On the FAQ page at Liberty Bellows they have a section on musette tuning. They write that French musette is -5 / 0 / +15 . Not symmetrical, as you mentioned.
Is ByMarco a brand of accordion, or is Marco a tuner? Nice sounding accordion.

 

[96Bass]

I like them all, guess I'd choose the Guerrini, for some intangible reason. Great thread!

I really like the Guerrinni sound as well. After I got it, I always specified +20 tuning when I bought a new accordion as I liked it's sound so much.
The Guerrini is by far the least expensive of the four. It's sound is beautiful but it comes in last place as far as keyboard action and response.
As a note, I am the original owner of all four accordions and none have been in to the shop for any tuning or repair.

 

[dak]

The tremolo is a consequence of the difference in frequency between the two M reeds. It results in a "beating" you hear and that is the same for every accordion with the same amount of difference in frequency. Timbre has no effect on it, except with cassotto accordions where the timbre and volume of the M in cassotto is radically different from that outside the cassotto.

I disagree because timbre is defined by the overtones (in the case of free reeds and other interrupted-air-stream instruments, the overtones are essentially harmonics), and the overtones will beat by their difference frequency just like fundamentals do. And that implies that they are beating at a multiple of the beat frequency of the fundamental. So the timbre does have a significant effect on the harshness of the tremolo sound.

But nobody puts both M and M+ into cassotto. As a consequence, the Unda Maris of an organ (a tremolo register typically based on a soft string or flute sound) sounds much more rounded than an accordion tremolo even at similar shallowness.

The M in cassotto dominates the M outside and that generally makes for a less smooth pleasant MM sound than when there is no cassotto.

Well, the in-cassotto sound dominates the fundamentals, the out-of-cassotto sound dominates the overtones. With rather shallow tremolo, this keeps most of the beating to the fundamental and causes no disharmonicities that are much worse than with a piano.

For stronger tremolo, you are better off with equal timbre because then the result may be shriller but more consistent.

 

[Tom]

Hey Walker, I had no intention on being a collector. I will probably start trying to sell off some of my accordions. I tend to play one accordion exclusively. Besides my main accordion I like to have a back up. Until I got the Petosa the Beltuna custom was the main accordion and the Beltuna Euro IV was the back up. It was great because they are the same accordion except for the reed configurations. Really easy to switch from one to the other.
On the FAQ page at Liberty Bellows they have a section on musette tuning. They write that French musette is -5 / 0 / +15 . Not symmetrical, as you mentioned.
Is ByMarco a brand of accordion, or is Marco a tuner? Nice sounding accordion.

Hey Walker, I had no intention on being a collector. I will probably start trying to sell off some of my accordions. I tend to play one accordion exclusively. Besides my main accordion I like to have a back up. Until I got the Petosa the Beltuna custom was the main accordion and the Beltuna Euro IV was the back up. It was great because they are the same accordion except for the reed configurations. Really easy to switch from one to the other.
On the FAQ page at Liberty Bellows they have a section on musette tuning. They write that French musette is -5 / 0 / +15 . Not symmetrical, as you mentioned.
Is ByMarco a brand of accordion, or is Marco a tuner? Nice sounding accordion.

Marco Cagiada was the principal behind byMarco Accordions. He was a well known tuner before starting his own accordion line. I believe he had his own factory which may be closed now since Marco passed away in mid 2022. I don’t know the current details.

His accordions were well respected and favored by many of the “liscio” artists. He also produced a many years running video podcast which highlighted Italian accordion music. You can find them here:

https://m.youtube.com/@bymarcofisarmoniche/videos

I was very saddened when the news came out.