3rd party commercial sets and UPG's, worth it?

[joden]

Been looking at the Richard Noel website and the full setup he sells looks and sounds pretty cool. However I've been checking out the Roland Factory UPGs and I have to say they SEEM to be very similar.

This set (Richard Noel) is going to cost me well over $200 (AUD) so it's not cheap. Wanted to ask the opinions of more experienced owners as to whether it is a worthwhile investment.

I'll be using the Fr-4 for live gigs, so I do need to get up and running asap!

 

[Alan Sharkis]

You need some of the expansion sets from Roland in order to use the Noel UPGs. That's why they look similar to Noel's UPGs.

 

[joden]

Thanks, doesn't really answer the question though

You need some of the expansion sets from Roland in order to use the Noel UPGs. That's why they look similar to Noel's UPGs.

 

[Ventura]

"I'll be using the Fr-4 for live gigs, so I do need to get up and running asap!"

and you think you would get up and running by using someone elses
setups rather than getting to know the years and years worth of stuff already
built into the box you just bought by digging into it yourself ?

i just do not understand you people

the way to get a handle on the beast is to mess with it

every day

take copious notes and make incremental adjustments to stuff

save backups daily

it is an accordion (with nice extra stuff) just find the reedsets and shifts
that sound awesome to you and memorize where they are at and how
to get to them quick

get used to the different orchestral sounds and remember the switch combinations
to grab the ones you at need

 

[Valski]

When I purchased my FR8X the dealer included the Richard Noel sets because a lot of new Roland players would get frustrated and want to return their accordions otherwise. This speeds up a player's acclimatization with the technology because you already have something usable from the very beginning. Remember that these instruments also have a different feel from acoustic accordions so there will also be a learning curve because they feel different.

I have also created my own sets but the process can be very tedious and usually you won't end up creating something quite as professional for a very long time. If you play paid gigs it makes sense to me to have something ready to go as quickly as possible. Ultimately though the choice is yours.

 

[dunlustin]

I've had a 4X for some time and a 1X before that.
The 4X manuals show the massive amount of choice there is and it's not necessarily arranged how you would like.
RN's UPGs are practical answers to some FAQs. He has put in the time so you don't have to.
If I were a gigging musician I'd be looking at the time saved - just moving stuff around is laborious - which doesn't stop you doing your own research later and making further tweeks.
Add on: Valski got in before me but a 2nd opinion is usually worth having

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I don’t know if this is everybody’s story, but I know a guy who does a lot of teaching accordion. In his early years, he studied with the best of them, did a lot of gigging in addition to teaching, and generally wore himself thin. When the FR-7 came out, he bought one, but reserved it for gigs near the ocean, etc. He wasn’t exactly happy with the keyboard’s response. (For that matter, neither was I when I tried it and that’s when I bought the Sem Ciao reedless.)

Well, this guy didn’t buy another Roland until the 8x came out, and then he decided that he was too busy to experiment with it, or to read and try to understand the manual, so he had his dealer, another axccordionist, show him a few shortcuts. Can you imagine doing restaurant gigs, including strolling, with an 8x? His back was sore for sure.

When the 4x came out, he jumped on it. The 4x, it seemed to him, was a better choice, But again, he decided that he didn’t have time to experiment with it. Sure, he bought the Noel material, but he really wanted to create his own.

Now comes the good part. Enter a new student who was something of a techie. The student had a 4x and had downloaded the editor for it. The two of them agreed to the following scheme: the guy I know would teach the student accordion for an hour and collect his fee, and then they would spend the next half hour learning how to tweak the sounds in the 4x with the editor. The last I heard, they’re still doing it.

I, too, enjoy using that editor with my 4x, and I don’t have the pressures associated with being a gigging, teaching accordionist. But I can understand where that guy was coming from. During the time that I was teaching homebound kids subjects like high school sciences, mathematics, and some computer science, preparing lessons and having a family life, I convinced myself that I didn’t have time for very much else.

 

[John M]

I purchased the Richard Noel sets and am very satisfied with them. An added plus for me is, I learned a lot about the User Programs and can make small changes to them for certain tone qualities I like. He gives you nice documentation of the User programs. There is a name description of the instrument for each register. His detailed step by step installation instructions are great. When I had a question, he responded to me the same day with an answer.

Richard will ask you what Expansion sets you have. For any extra expansion slots you have, he will supply the expansion sets so you can load them first. He will then supply you with the User Programs that will work with the expansion sets.

An added benefit, was I learned a lot about how to navigate through the menus and make changes of my own to the User Programs. I don’t think I would have done it if I didn’t get started with the Richard Noel programs. Even if I did, it would have taken me many, many hours/days/weeks/months to develop what I got from his 32 banks (and 14 programs in each bank) of User Programs for my 8X.

For me, it was a very worthwhile investment.

John M.

 

[Valski]

I've had a 4X for some time and a 1X before that.
The 4X manuals show the massive amount of choice there is and it's not necessarily arranged how you would like.
RN's UPGs are practical answers to some FAQs. He has put in the time so you don't have to.
If I were a gigging musician I'd be looking at the time saved - just moving stuff around is laborious - which doesn't stop you doing your own research later and making further tweeks.
Add on: Valski got in before me but a 2nd opinion is usually worth having

Yes! By all means create your own sets, but it's also much easier and quicker to start by using the Richard Noel sets. Technical manuals are written for a specific category of people and I'm not sure that most accordionists fall into this group so it's quite likely that you'll struggle and become frustrated. As with anything this technical you'll probably never uncover more than a small fraction of your instrument's capabilities so you might want to embrace the head start.

If you feel confident about programming your own sets by all means ignore my advice, otherwise avoid a lot of frustration.

 

[dunlustin]

Just to make it clear - I was agreeing with Valski, I'm not sure why that didn't come across.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I purchased the Richard Noel sets and am very satisfied with them. An added plus for me is, I learned a lot about the User Programs and can make small changes to them for certain tone qualities I like. He gives you nice documentation of the User programs. There is a name description of the instrument for each register. His detailed step by step installation instructions are great. When I had a question, he responded to me the same day with an answer.

Richard will ask you what Expansion sets you have. For any extra expansion slots you have, he will supply the expansion sets so you can load them first. He will then supply you with the User Programs that will work with the expansion sets.

An added benefit, was I learned a lot about how to navigate through the menus and make changes of my own to the User Programs. I don’t think I would have done it if I didn’t get started with the Richard Noel programs. Even if I did, it would have taken me many, many hours/days/weeks/months to develop what I got from his 32 banks (and 14 programs in each bank) of User Programs for my 8X.

For me, it was a very worthwhile investment.

John M.

I had pretty much the same experiences when I purchased the Richard Noel UPGs for my 4x.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I purchased the Richard Noel sets and am very satisfied with them. An added plus for me is, I learned a lot about the User Programs and can make small changes to them for certain tone qualities I like. He gives you nice documentation of the User programs. There is a name description of the instrument for each register. His detailed step by step installation instructions are great. When I had a question, he responded to me the same day with an answer.

Richard will ask you what Expansion sets you have. For any extra expansion slots you have, he will supply the expansion sets so you can load them first. He will then supply you with the User Programs that will work with the expansion sets.

An added benefit, was I learned a lot about how to navigate through the menus and make changes of my own to the User Programs. I don’t think I would have done it if I didn’t get started with the Richard Noel programs. Even if I did, it would have taken me many, many hours/days/weeks/months to develop what I got from his 32 banks (and 14 programs in each bank) of User Programs for my 8X.

For me, it was a very worthwhile investment.

John M.

The trouble with manuals has been a pet peeve of mine since the 8-bit home computer days. They are certainly not written by end users, but by the same technicians who developed the product, whatever the product is. It wasn’t always that way, but let’s just say it saves the company that made the product money. I found myself writing ‘how-to’ articles for my computer user groups. The worst examples are manuals that are originally written in one language and then, usually poorly, translated into another. Somewhat better are manuals written in the end user’s language, but with the skimpiest of index and/or table of contents. I think Roland’s manuals fall into that category. I know of one dealer who spends a lot of time writing simple guides to start his customers off, and coaches those who need it. Not all dealers do that.

 

[Chris Laarman]

The trouble with manuals has been a pet peeve of mine since the 8-bit home computer days. They are certainly not written by end users, but by the same technicians who developed the product, whatever the product is. It wasn’t always that way, but let’s just say it saves the company that made the product money. I found myself writing ‘how-to’ articles for my computer user groups. The worst examples are manuals that are originally written in one language and then, usually poorly, translated into another. Somewhat better are manuals written in the end user’s language, but with the skimpiest of index and/or table of contents. I think Roland’s manuals fall into that category. I know of one dealer who spends a lot of time writing simple guides to start his customers off, and coaches those who need it. Not all dealers do that.

With no intention to start off-original-topic discussions:

I have come to view manuals as falling into two groups:
- the "this is this and that is that" approach, maybe similar to a pupil showing that he's done his homework;
- the "how to achieve" approach, I hope similar to a teacher explaining the matter.

I consider Roland manuals to be in the former group, ever since my first Roland device in 1989. I have (essentially) submitted that to Roland this year when registering some new gear (like my FR-1xb) and taking the survey (the first of two).

As to language:
My primary language is Dutch. However, I have chosen to have everything "computer" (including electronic musical instruments) documented in English. English tends to be the original language. Besides, the great dictionary work that IBM did around 1987 has not stuck with us Dutch. (My primary example is "format", which tends to be translated by Dutch as "formaat" - the same word, but with the mere meaning "dimensions", not any "arranging" involved.)

 

[joden]

"I'll be using the Fr-4 for live gigs, so I do need to get up and running asap!"

and you think you would get up and running by using someone elses
setups rather than getting to know the years and years worth of stuff already
built into the box you just bought by digging into it yourself ?

i just do not understand you people

the way to get a handle on the beast is to mess with it

every day

take copious notes and make incremental adjustments to stuff

save backups daily

it is an accordion (with nice extra stuff) just find the reedsets and shifts
that sound awesome to you and memorize where they are at and how
to get to them quick

get used to the different orchestral sounds and remember the switch combinations
to grab the ones you at need

haha spoken like someone who it would seem, does not gig for a living! (btw just a friendly *poke* nothing meant by it) I simply do not have the luxury of time to plumb the depths of this....so yes initially, I would use sets that are suitable for live gigs, but then over time I would tweak those out to suit me and the songs i do, better.

 

[joden]

I purchased the Richard Noel sets and am very satisfied with them. An added plus for me is, I learned a lot about the User Programs and can make small changes to them for certain tone qualities I like. He gives you nice documentation of the User programs. There is a name description of the instrument for each register. His detailed step by step installation instructions are great. When I had a question, he responded to me the same day with an answer.

Richard will ask you what Expansion sets you have. For any extra expansion slots you have, he will supply the expansion sets so you can load them first. He will then supply you with the User Programs that will work with the expansion sets.

An added benefit, was I learned a lot about how to navigate through the menus and make changes of my own to the User Programs. I don’t think I would have done it if I didn’t get started with the Richard Noel programs. Even if I did, it would have taken me many, many hours/days/weeks/months to develop what I got from his 32 banks (and 14 programs in each bank) of User Programs for my 8X.

For me, it was a very worthwhile investment.

John M.

I am still to get a reply to the email I sent him regarding this package...that was a couple of days ago now.

 

[joden]

Thanks to all the replies. It has given me confident to proceed ahead with purchasing this. Although I note in one of the comments the need for expansion packs. I might need to re-visit Roland and research what those are.

 

[Ventura]

expansion packs are an admission that owners feel the 20, 30, 40
included sets of "virtual" accordion reeds are really lacking in something...
quality ? tone ?

and here is the real problem from a professional point of view:
when you use the same programs as everyone else, you risk sounding like everyone else

i remember when the Korg M1 workstation came out..
(and changed the face of Pro Studio Music production)
it included a sample of an Arrow being shot past a Microphone

that was an amazing, unique sound for the time.. it caught everyone's attention..
then thousands of commercial jingles and studio sessions later all those M1 Pro's
had used the sound to DEATH until using it again was the Kiss of death for a new project

 

[dunlustin]

For expansions see here:

Roland - Support - FR-4x - Updates & Drivers

Support - FR-4x Updates & Drivers

www.roland.com

 

[JerryPH]

I cannot speak to a 4x, I own an 8X. The sets that Roland includes are honestly only mildly similar because you did not compare the 2 with your ears. The Noel sets take it not 1 notch higher, but 10. I did the comparison and basically, there is no comparison. What Roland did on their sets is likely the work of a few hours, the work Richard did was the work of months and the evolution of around 2+ years, and trust me, they could take a few lessons from him!

 

[John M]

I cannot speak to a 4x, I own an 8X. The sets that Roland includes are honestly only mildly similar because you did not compare the 2 with your ears. The Noel sets take it not 1 notch higher, but 10. I did the comparison and basically, there is no comparison. What Roland did on their sets is likely the work of a few hours, the work Richard did was the work of months and the evolution of around 2+ years, and trust me, they could take a few lessons from him!

I agree with JerryPH on what Richard Noel did to improve the sound/tone of the 8X.

What puzzles me is how Roland could have designed the basic Accordion/Orchestral/Organ tones/sounds without having knowledge of what the final product was capable of. Someone at Roland (Designers) had to know what the final capabilities of the product would be as this would be the framework for the design and manufacture of the accordion. For some reason they just didn't incorporate the Sets/Programs into the product from the factory.

Look at what Dale Mathis did in creating his sound sets available only through Crown Music. But you had to buy the accordion from them. His sound sets were not available for purchase. I think the owner of Crown Music retired and Dale is now working with Kraft Music.

I think Roland could have sold a lot more accordions if they had included better Sets and User Programs right from the factory.

John M.