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3rd party commercial sets and UPG's, worth it?

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I agree with JerryPH on what Richard Noel did to improve the sound/tone of the 8X.

What puzzles me is how Roland could have designed the basic Accordion/Orchestral/Organ tones/sounds without having knowledge of what the final product was capable of. Someone at Roland (Designers) had to know what the final capabilities of the product would be as this would be the framework for the design and manufacture of the accordion. For some reason they just didn't incorporate the Sets/Programs into the product from the factory.

Look at what Dale Mathis did in creating his sound sets available only through Crown Music. But you had to buy the accordion from them. His sound sets were not available for purchase. I think the owner of Crown Music retired and Dale is now working with Kraft Music.

I think Roland could have sold a lot more accordions if they had included better Sets and User Programs right from the factory.

John M.
Yes, Dale Mathis did jump to Kraft Music when Crown Music closed. IMHO, he'd probably make more money by selling his sets to anyone, whether they buy their accordions from Kraft or not. It may be worth noting that both Tris Gour and Michael Bridge have produced collections of sounds for the FR-8x/Bugari EVO and they are available from Petosa.
 
I agree with JerryPH on what Richard Noel did to improve the sound/tone of the 8X.

What puzzles me is how Roland could have designed the basic Accordion/Orchestral/Organ tones/sounds without having knowledge of what the final product was capable of. Someone at Roland (Designers) had to know what the final capabilities of the product would be as this would be the framework for the design and manufacture of the accordion. For some reason they just didn't incorporate the Sets/Programs into the product from the factory.

Look at what Dale Mathis did in creating his sound sets available only through Crown Music. But you had to buy the accordion from them. His sound sets were not available for purchase. I think the owner of Crown Music retired and Dale is now working with Kraft Music.

I think Roland could have sold a lot more accordions if they had included better Sets and User Programs right from the factory.

John M.
Off-topic: well, Yamaha had a similar thing happen with the VL70-m synthesizer module (which matches the WX5 wind controller). Matt (Patchman Music) developed better sounds, and offered them on a replacement ROM chip. He was (at least, at last) involved in designing sounds for the Roland Aerophone.

Actually, both the design of the sounds and the contents of the manuals (addressed in another thread) may be due to Roland (and others) have technicians develop products to the ideas of the marketeers without too much involvement of the target group (us musicians). (Just an impression, not even an opinion.) :)
 
I'm also in the camp of I don't want to create sounds and programs (or even restore anymore) I want to play music. I probably would have been just as happy with the Noel sets but Dale Mathis had a super sale when he left Crown for Kraft 😀. I'm using the Ventura method of searching around, but happily not starting from scratch. Plus Dale has like a thousand videos and sheet music, with new ones all the time where he explains the sound he's using (even if he tends to Old Time). A better daily internet fix than doom scrolling.

And he answers his phone and answers any dumb old question you might have.

What's better, Mathis or Noel? Ford or Chevy? Victoria or Petosa? Only your hairdresser knows for sure (and I restored his accordion but can't get him to play it, story of my life).
 
Thanks, doesn't really answer the question though :)
Hello,
The Richard Noel programming is worth GOLD!!! It will make your playing experience exponentially better. It literally transform the instrument.
Richard Hryniewicki
 
Not sure I'll bother with the Richard Noel purchase...it's been near five days since I sent an email to him with no response! I don't like dealing with folks who will not return even a basic acknowledgment message!
 
To be fair, I sent a follow up email a few hours ago...Still got nothing back as yet.
 
To be fair, I sent a follow up email a few hours ago...Still got nothing back as yet.
Me too, I'd be reluctant to buy from someone who doesn't react. - However, a one-man business may easily be unresponsive. He may be on a far-away gig, he may be in hospital, his e-mail provider may have a power outage, ... Apart from that, allow for time zone matters. :)
 
Be patient gents, it really is worth it, and yes Richard is super active, the first time took about a week to get a response, after that he really was fast with the responses for me.
 
For one person, Richard "covers a lot of ground". If you really want his User Programs, go to his website and buy the one you need. Believe what the folks on this forum are telling you. I don't know of anyone that has been disappointed. After reading positive evaluations of his Sets and User Programs, I bought his User Programs for my 8X. I didn't precede my purchase with any e-mails. As I mentioned in a previous post, his response was quick, often the same day. As JerryPH said, I'm sure he will get back to you. Don't forget, he has to take care of his orders and possible questions from his customer base (I had a few after my purchase). I am sure those have a higher priority than replying to a "query" e-mail.

John M.
 
For years I avoided purchasing the Roland accordions until I saw Richard Noel's videos. Prior to this some of the sounds generated by various V-accordions seemed to be artificial and of low quality. Since the investment in one of these accordions is high, I wasn't interested in getting something that didn't sound amazing. These sets are truly exceptional and I have received compliments from both musicians and audience members regarding the exceptional quality of the audio. I'm not a programmer so having the sets is a Godsend.
 
What puzzles me is how Roland could have designed the basic Accordion/Orchestral/Organ tones/sounds without having knowledge of what the final product was capable of. Someone at Roland (Designers) had to know what the final capabilities of the product would be as this would be the framework for the design and manufacture of the accordion. For some reason they just didn't incorporate the Sets/Programs into the product from the factory.
Actually, Roland did include quite a lot of nice programmed sets in their expansion sets. The Alpine expansion and it's UPGs come to mind rather fast. Their job, though, is not to make the best combinations for users, but to make the accordion that has those possibilities... thats our job and some enterprising 3rd party individuals to ferret out for us and get even higher out there... even then you have singular examples of UPGs that are so far above what most need, that it boggles the mind (ie: Michael Bridge's 1812 Overture anyone?). :)
 
Good news is the Richard got back to me with a very nice and detailed response. Plus a listing of what is in the sets. TBH, quite a few I probably wouldn't use, but the setup IE sounds balancing and mixing, EQ'ing etc alone are worth it.

I do find a lot of the Roland factory ones have been "cobbled" if I can use that word, together on a PC based on what the programmer thinks they sound like with no "real-world" testing of same. I could be totally wrong, but that is how they seem.

I told Richard that if I decide to keep the FR4 (still in the trial phase, hence the eclectic range of questions of various threads) I will definitely buy his sets! (one sure thing that will convince me of keeping it is if I can sort this bellows issue with the BK-7m - another issue on a separate thread)
 
I knew he woud.

There are a few people that have taken the time and made the effort to earn people's respect, others that have proven that they don't... Richard is one of the good ones. He's been around since the start and is still here today. Dale Mathis may be a nice guy and all, but his concern is more his pocket book than anything else, and his business practices show that.

Let me share a little story... I used to own my own network and certified trainer company for 35 years. I wasn't rich, but I was debt free and comfortable.

In 2012 my father started showing heavy signs of Alzheimers/Dementia. Over the course of 2012 I first had to close off the consulting company and worked as a trainer part time to take care of my father. By August 2012 I had to completely stop working and me and my mother took care of my father 24/7. That lasted until June 2016. I wonder how many people here could eliminate 100% of their income for over 3.5 years and survive... because that is what I had to do.

When my dad passed, I really needed time to get myself together, that is also when I discovered that to get my certifications back I would need about $25,000US and basically a year to get back to where I was. At that point in life, this was simply not possible to do.

I ended up deciding to get my head together and look for a job... any job. That process took another several months. During this time I stumbled on the 8X and a week later the BK. I sincerely had no idea where I was supposed to get the money from at that point, but VISA is nice to me in that way... lol.

Anyway, that's around the time I started going to the accordion club meetings and found the 8X... long story short, I had rather stupidly agreed to perform for the accordion club's Christmas party a mere few weeks after coming back from not playing near 4 decades and having just recently picking up the 8X. Now I had the challenge of trying to learn to play again... and learn how to make the 8X sound good. No prob, I thought I had 24 hours a day, I was confident that I could do it if I applied myself.

Here is the part of the story where Richard comes in... I reached out and asked questions because I knew very little about 3rd part UPGs and nothing about programming. His reply was basically the sets that would work best for Christmas music and my style of music were... and he sent me almost half his sets FOR FREE, no questions asked.

I did the Christmas party it was a huge success, and now a part of my story. I also had found a job and started working soon after. You can bet that with my first cheque, I sent Richard full payment for his sets and received the rest of the files a few minutes later, no words exchanged, except my most sincere thanks. He did not need to send me anything, just answer a question (which he did very well), but he also went above and beyond at a time in my life that I was really struggling. Not only are his sounds the BEST on the market in terms of available UPGs/Sets for the 8X, the man who makes them is a gentleman. I'm also not alone in this kind of story... there are NO such stories about Dale Mathis that I can find... see what I mean?
 
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Another point about the Richard Noel sets. He puts them out on the "open market". His software programs are not protected in any way from being copied. He trusts that people will not copy and distribute them freely.

The Dale Mathis sets are not for sale and were only available if you bought an accordion from Crown Music or now Kraft Music. In one of his videos, I remember him talking about his great product support. He will give you his phone number and will lead you through any problem you may have with his sets. He will guide you through the steps to make any corrections that may be necessary. I'm sure he will, but what do you do if Dale is not around--goes out of business?

With Richard Noel, he gives you very detailed written instructions for the UPG installations. In the process, you learn a lot about how the accordion works. If something happens to Richard, you have all his software and the knowledge to do a new installation. This is how it should be--you own the product that you purchased.

John M.
 
The best part of the process, is that it cuts learning time drastically to learn how to program and make your very own sounds come a bit faster because we can dissect and study their settings.
 
Omg, I gotta write a story about Dale Mathis now too?🤣🤣🤣🤣

I don't understand why you would say Dale's concern is more about his pocketbook. Yeah, he promotes his product, but my guess is he's gainfully retired and his accordion income is more a pleasant side line. Why did he go with the model of only selling the sets with an accordion? Who knows! Does he make more or less than Richard Noel selling them separately? Who knows! Who cares! If Richard were better, he'd make 'em all open source!

Anyway, I'm not making a value judgment about which sets are "better." Maybe Dale's are better for old time music and Richard's are better for new time.

All I know is Dale's sets come with a flash drive with the software, and instructions how to re-load them if you have to. He has always answered the phone and responded to emails right away, and will provide any answers you need. He freely provides tons of sheet music, video examples, backing tracks, and demos of how to use the sets. Not to mention a series of free how to play the accordion videos.

Ok, I don't have the sort of story that Jerry has, but please, let's not diss the man because he's promoting.....
 
You're right Tom, I may have pulled it a bit off topic. Dale sells them with the accordion because he gets paid a kickback for every accordion he sells with his sets on them when purchased through ONE dealer, no they are not as extensive as the ones from Richard Noel. I bet in a one on one comparison by number of UPG's for the money alone, Noel gives more variations and more complex setups. Both can be used in a variety of music. In response to my query, Dale's reply to me when I asked was borderline aggressive... probably fed up from answering that question a hundred times a day. For the vast maxjority, I still believe that the Noel sets are the best overall, that includes comparison with Michael Bridge's or (I believe) that Defner also promotes some that are not as exciting but more expensive to boot.


Does this all matter? Mostly no, just that one is forced to purchase from one place if you want the Mathis custom UPG's. Not the issue if one goes through Noel or other providers.
 
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Yep, all good enough for me, thanks all...just made the purchase!
 
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