ABC notation... bass ?
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Hi Ed; When reading music scored for piano, a basic knowledge of music theory is helpful to determine the bass and chord required for accordion application. Most music today has the guitar chord notations per measure and will enable you to determine the bass and chord buttons to use. If you care, I'll expand on this. JIM
JIM D. said:
I understand that Jim - but this gives no bass info. Perhaps I havent posed the question well.
I know enough theory to add bass to compliment the melody and time signature - but how would I know if I didnt know the tune whether this was as intended/expected? How would I know for example if there was a rest to be placed here or there? Is that up to me to decide for the styles of music that its ( notation)usually used for? Ie if it sounds ok to me - then thats ok?
donn
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Soulsaver said:
Yes! / No, youre sunk! I dont think there is any other way out of the conundrum. Barring some external reference, since that would sort of beg the question.
Do you have an example? It would be fun to see how many different ways we might go with it.
[Edit ...] Coincidentally, in some email I received this morning ... I let Finale generate a harmony ... So if someone has Finale, that could also be a contestant.
I think Donn is right. Without some reference there is no way.
Luckily, if you listen to lots of music over the years you have a reference between your ears.
If it sounds good and matches how you woukd expect it to be played then it's probably ok.
For a totally new style you are going to have to listen to others to get a feel how the bass should go.
Luckily, if you listen to lots of music over the years you have a reference between your ears.
If it sounds good and matches how you woukd expect it to be played then it's probably ok.
For a totally new style you are going to have to listen to others to get a feel how the bass should go.
Well I was interested in a Scottish (think) traditional tune. And its not really my field but quite like it and wouldn't mind giving it a 'go', eventually. I'll get an example up when Chrome decides to work...
Courtesy of The Session - it is Scottish for the record
X: 3
T: Kenmure's Up And Awa' (amongst other titles for the same or (30+!) similar pieces - which itself would probably go some way to answer my question on this one...)
R: jig
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
K: Gmaj
GBd gdB | ded d2 c | ~B3 BAG | FAA AFD |
GBd gdB | def g2 f | edc BcA | BGG G2 : |
g2 d edB | ded def | g2 d edB | ABA ABd |
g2 d edB | def g2 f | edc BcA | BGF G2 : |
X: 3
T: Kenmure's Up And Awa' (amongst other titles for the same or (30+!) similar pieces - which itself would probably go some way to answer my question on this one...)
R: jig
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
K: Gmaj
GBd gdB | ded d2 c | ~B3 BAG | FAA AFD |
GBd gdB | def g2 f | edc BcA | BGG G2 : |
g2 d edB | ded def | g2 d edB | ABA ABd |
g2 d edB | def g2 f | edc BcA | BGF G2 : |
donn
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G D G D G C D /
G D G C C D G /
G D G D G C D /
G D G C C D G /
or, probably leaning a tiny bit more in the `pop direction, vs. `folk
G D G D G Em D /
G D G Bm C D G /
etc.
(Notation comment - two per bar, and I use / where a chord continues through the bar, so D / means D D.)
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donn
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Well, that was fun! I guess if there are any Scots here, they're laying low.
On review, I reckon that in the 2nd version I'd have better used Em where I have Bm - the Bm is too drippy - and might have followed it with Am instead of C. Am would also work after the first Em, instead of D, but again, drippy.
I did that by ear, relying on familiarity with English tunes used in Morris. Kind of like: "this bit at the beginning is sure to be G" ... "same at the end" ... "4th bar sounds like D" ... "C would sound good before that D" ... "hm, G fits 1st & 2nd bars, but an alternating D makes it more lively in a what I reckon would be characteristic style". Etc. I think some of this could easily be accounted for on some theoretical grounds - but I'm skeptical that one could do so well starting from that basis alone. There's a lot of ambiguity in here, without a lot of assumptions drawn from the musical style (not saying mine are right, just that they're stylistically consistent.)
On review, I reckon that in the 2nd version I'd have better used Em where I have Bm - the Bm is too drippy - and might have followed it with Am instead of C. Am would also work after the first Em, instead of D, but again, drippy.
I did that by ear, relying on familiarity with English tunes used in Morris. Kind of like: "this bit at the beginning is sure to be G" ... "same at the end" ... "4th bar sounds like D" ... "C would sound good before that D" ... "hm, G fits 1st & 2nd bars, but an alternating D makes it more lively in a what I reckon would be characteristic style". Etc. I think some of this could easily be accounted for on some theoretical grounds - but I'm skeptical that one could do so well starting from that basis alone. There's a lot of ambiguity in here, without a lot of assumptions drawn from the musical style (not saying mine are right, just that they're stylistically consistent.)
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As I have probably bored you all to death by saying, I am half Scottish, so - if I was harmonising this:
- Firstly I would find it hard. Advice to use a chord that "sounds right to you" is all well and good, but firstly I don't have a great ear for harmony, second I just haven't had the exposure to those chord sequences that other people may have done. So around the time I was becoming an adult there was a lot of (brilliant) music around which just didn't rely on the kind of chord sequences that sound standard to some people, and that's what I got used to. This is why written chord symbols are very useful to me, even though I know better than to worship them. And also why Donn's framework is very useful for me.
- Secondly to match the kind of Scottish music I am familiar with I would definitely put in the minor chords, but not too many, so maybe the Em's in Donn's suggestions. Then I would use some dom7 chords esp at the ends of phrases etc. Then I would use some counterbasses, alternating basses, bass runs to keep the flow going. And that would really be by ear according to what kind of flow sounded right to me because I would feel more able to judge that "melodic" side of bass playing. But someone that knows the music better could set me straight.
- Even if I was interested in an older style of Scottish music I think I would follow a similar approach. The William Hannah recordings that I've heard are accompanied by piano and use these sorts of options. But again, no doubt an expert could set me straight.
- Then there are other Scottish styles that I am not so famililar with. On The Accordion Forum, a collector of old recordings (wax cylinders and the like) posted a really old recording of Peter Wyper playing Scottish dance music. It was unaccompanied and the style of playing was like a very powerfully played fiddle. I thought it was great and a real breath of fresh air, it's a shame I can't find the site. But anyway, that is moving away from what the question was about.
- Firstly I would find it hard. Advice to use a chord that "sounds right to you" is all well and good, but firstly I don't have a great ear for harmony, second I just haven't had the exposure to those chord sequences that other people may have done. So around the time I was becoming an adult there was a lot of (brilliant) music around which just didn't rely on the kind of chord sequences that sound standard to some people, and that's what I got used to. This is why written chord symbols are very useful to me, even though I know better than to worship them. And also why Donn's framework is very useful for me.
- Secondly to match the kind of Scottish music I am familiar with I would definitely put in the minor chords, but not too many, so maybe the Em's in Donn's suggestions. Then I would use some dom7 chords esp at the ends of phrases etc. Then I would use some counterbasses, alternating basses, bass runs to keep the flow going. And that would really be by ear according to what kind of flow sounded right to me because I would feel more able to judge that "melodic" side of bass playing. But someone that knows the music better could set me straight.
- Even if I was interested in an older style of Scottish music I think I would follow a similar approach. The William Hannah recordings that I've heard are accompanied by piano and use these sorts of options. But again, no doubt an expert could set me straight.
- Then there are other Scottish styles that I am not so famililar with. On The Accordion Forum, a collector of old recordings (wax cylinders and the like) posted a really old recording of Peter Wyper playing Scottish dance music. It was unaccompanied and the style of playing was like a very powerfully played fiddle. I thought it was great and a real breath of fresh air, it's a shame I can't find the site. But anyway, that is moving away from what the question was about.
Matt Butcher said:
donn
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Matt Butcher said:
Oh yeah, there are some places that I would think would sure call for counter bass. And same with dominant 7 - I sort of understand the V chord as naturally allowing dominant 7, so Id write D without really intending to make a distinction between D and D7. Though I have noticed that Vs in the English stuff I occasionally play seem to sound better without the dominant 7, as a rule.
I actually do this kind of thing rather often, loosely, since I am really more of a bass player. I play in several groups where its all I do the whole time, improvised harmony. I honestly cant account for how its done, though. Some people can do better on that score - happened to be discussing this matter with other musicians recently, and they were kind of surprised to hear that I often couldnt tell you what key Im playing in. Theyd know, and I guess theyd be thinking about how it works on what Id call a theoretical level, but Im real weak on that.
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Donn, I hope I didn't suggest I was correcting your work - that wasn't the idea at all, just setting down how I might personally go about working with the framework that you had set out. And also relating to some other discussions on the forums about what type of chords might go with Scottish tunes. I'm grateful for you working out the framework, it would have taken me bloody ages even with all those Gs and Ds. And if you can do it unconsciously rather than theoretically and still get it right, that must be a great feeling.
donn
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No, not at all - if you want to correct my work, you'll have to post a chart! Anyway, if you accept my premise that there are a variety of acceptable interpretations, I wouldn't take it as a correction, really it's a little disappointing that no one else has disputed my chart.
I thought about a minor version, which is sort of my specialty, but nothing very promising there so far.
I thought about a minor version, which is sort of my specialty, but nothing very promising there so far.
Donn said....or rather donn wrote........
<HIGHLIGHT highlight="#ff0000">[highlight=#ff0000]I actually do this kind of thing rather often, loosely, since I am really more of a bass player. I play in several groups where it's all I do the whole time, improvised harmony. I honestly can't account for how it's done, though. Some people can do better on that score - happened to be discussing this matter with other musicians recently, and they were kind of surprised to hear that I often couldn't tell you what key I'm playing in. They'd know, and I guess they'd be thinking about how it works on what I'd call a theoretical level, but I'm real weak on that.[/highlight]</HIGHLIGHT>
That sometimes happens to me if I am trying to work out a key by noodling along to a piece....usually, rock or blues using the pentatonic blues scale.....you find that the single notes make nice harmonies or "fit".....you think that you have nailed and try the chords and they're wrong......cos they fit two or more keys......aint music infurry-i-atein' but great fun............
I believe the same notes will fit C major, A minor and probably G major (if you don't play an F sharp in the "noodle") ....I also believe this is why it is possible to Cross Harp as it called with diatonic harmonicas....if you are not playing the actual tune you can busk along an accompaniement harmony.......
<HIGHLIGHT highlight="#ff0000">[highlight=#ff0000]I actually do this kind of thing rather often, loosely, since I am really more of a bass player. I play in several groups where it's all I do the whole time, improvised harmony. I honestly can't account for how it's done, though. Some people can do better on that score - happened to be discussing this matter with other musicians recently, and they were kind of surprised to hear that I often couldn't tell you what key I'm playing in. They'd know, and I guess they'd be thinking about how it works on what I'd call a theoretical level, but I'm real weak on that.[/highlight]</HIGHLIGHT>
That sometimes happens to me if I am trying to work out a key by noodling along to a piece....usually, rock or blues using the pentatonic blues scale.....you find that the single notes make nice harmonies or "fit".....you think that you have nailed and try the chords and they're wrong......cos they fit two or more keys......aint music infurry-i-atein' but great fun............
I believe the same notes will fit C major, A minor and probably G major (if you don't play an F sharp in the "noodle") ....I also believe this is why it is possible to Cross Harp as it called with diatonic harmonicas....if you are not playing the actual tune you can busk along an accompaniement harmony.......
Another post looking like this one may well appear somewhere else cos I don't know what I did with it!
Alternative approach assuming you have the ABC to work from andusing the chords "suggested"
] = barline----All notes are single bass notes -----Ooom is a long oom and pa' is a short pah. X = no note played:
ooom pa' ooom pa']ooom pa' ooom pa']ooom pa' ooom pa']ooom pa' ooom pa']
...g......d....g........d....d........X....d.......c.....g.......d.....g.......d...d.........a....d.......X
and so on
Ending the last bar g....d g might be worth a try
Donn's minor chord suggestions could be used in repeats although I agree about the Bmin - perhaps depending how pretty you want the version to sound, less of a problem if you avoid the thirds to stay "ambiguous."
PS the .s and -s are there to keep things apart - the text "collapses" without them.
This is unreadable even after trying to adjust spacing several times
I'm leaving it in as someone might know why the text editor doesn't keep the formatting and how I might get it right another time.
Alternative approach assuming you have the ABC to work from andusing the chords "suggested"
] = barline----All notes are single bass notes -----Ooom is a long oom and pa' is a short pah. X = no note played:
ooom pa' ooom pa']ooom pa' ooom pa']ooom pa' ooom pa']ooom pa' ooom pa']
...g......d....g........d....d........X....d.......c.....g.......d.....g.......d...d.........a....d.......X
and so on
Ending the last bar g....d g might be worth a try
Donn's minor chord suggestions could be used in repeats although I agree about the Bmin - perhaps depending how pretty you want the version to sound, less of a problem if you avoid the thirds to stay "ambiguous."
PS the .s and -s are there to keep things apart - the text "collapses" without them.
This is unreadable even after trying to adjust spacing several times
I'm leaving it in as someone might know why the text editor doesn't keep the formatting and how I might get it right another time.
donn
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I wouldn't guess you'll have much luck with a tabular layout using spaces, but not sure I get what you're trying to do.
What I think works best if it's possible, is to call out the chord for every beat, where "beat" is loosely defined so that your chords don't fall between beats. If that makes sense. Here's another example:
G / / / G D G /
G / / / G C G /
This one has a lot of G, on the theory that if they like the sound of highland pipes, they might like one chord all the time. But since the one variation occurs in the second half of the 3rd and 7th measures, I need two chords in that measure and thus I'm obliged to write two chords per measure all the way through. To make it less obnoxious I use / as a repeat.
What I think works best if it's possible, is to call out the chord for every beat, where "beat" is loosely defined so that your chords don't fall between beats. If that makes sense. Here's another example:
G / / / G D G /
G / / / G C G /
This one has a lot of G, on the theory that if they like the sound of highland pipes, they might like one chord all the time. But since the one variation occurs in the second half of the 3rd and 7th measures, I need two chords in that measure and thus I'm obliged to write two chords per measure all the way through. To make it less obnoxious I use / as a repeat.
donn
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Also ... OK, I went and cheated and listened to some Scottish music, and it occurs to me that the tempo at which this is to be played will be a factor. I mean, not that one couldn't insert any number of chords at whatever blistering tempo, but they might make less musical sense (sort of highlights the error of taking my cues from English music.) I mention this partly because it seems interesting from a theoretical perspective -- if we're looking for theoretical principles that would generate correct chords for this melody, then, if you buy my assertion, the theory would have to account for the effect of tempo.
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