Advice on CBA

[Salicet]

Hello All,


I recently joined this forum and enjoyed reading the many questions and answers. I want to ask for advice on a replacement accordion. The instrument in the photo is a 96-bass Parrott, which I recently sold. I want to replace it with a CBA, but I am unsure what to buy. Should I go for a “C” system or a “B” system? Can I ask, please, what are the pros and cons of each?

 

[saundersbp]

Get C system as you are in UK and guessing by your user name you are also an organist!

 

[tcabot]

A lot more C system teachers & players in the UK. Probably 95% are on C.

There's also "Do 2" and "Finnish B" by the way. It's not just C and B.

Why are you thinking of switching from PA to CBA? Especially if you're an organist?

 

[dunlustin]

C system will keep your options open, (as above) there is a wider choice of instruments/learning materials/players to follow.
Although there are minority layouts too, they are more accidents of history than anything else - just happened to be what was around at the time.

(edit: 'our' to 'your' makes a lot more sense - can't remember my last option!)

 

[Salicet]

C system will keep our options open, (as above) there is a wider choice of instruments/learning materials/players to follow.
Although there are minority layouts too, they are more accidents of history than anything else - just happened to be what was around at the time.

Thank you all for your advice. I had more or less decided to go for a "C" system because they seem to be more popular in this part of the world. I am not an organist, though I do love organ music of all types and often go to recitals. The reason I asked my question was because I have read that a "B" system instrument is better suited to more serious music, while a "C" system one is better for more popular music, and I wondered if there is any truth in that. I would also like advice as to what instrument to choose. I want a 96 bass instrument, of Italian manufacture. A 120 bass instrument is just too big and heavy for me as I am in my 80s and have back troubles. I had thought about an 80-pass model, but I am not sure I can do away with diminished chords. As I very seldom play anything with more than three sharps or flats in the key signature, maybe I could get away with a 72-bass instrument. I think that probably the way to go is to go to a reputable dealer and see what I can find.

 

[debra]

Good choice to go with C-system. That C system is more for light music and B system for serious music is absolute rubbish. The main difference between the popularity of either system is due to geographics. In some areas C system is prevalent and in other areas B system. Go with what's the majority in your area and you will have more used instruments to choose from. For new accordions it doesn't much matter.
You should take into account that for an adult making the switch it can take up to 5 or 6 years of very regular practice to reach a really good level on CBA. My wife and I made the switch and have not regretted it one bit.
I would strongly advise to go for a decent accordion, not Chinese rubbish (like Parrot and several hundred other names, including all new Hohner accordions like Nova, Amica and Bravo. Best is to go for a decent Italian accordion. Watch out for the base tuning frequency in order to play with others. All manufacturers can do both 440 and 442Hz but some will give you 440 if you didn't ask and some do 442 if you didn't ask for a specific tuning. All manufacturers can also do all levels of tremolo, but again, you need to specify what you want.

 

[dak]

I had thought about an 80-pass model, but I am not sure I can do away with diminished chords.

That is a misconception. 80-bass models are not lacking the diminished chords but the seventh chords. They just call them differently. To wit: an accordion "with" diminished chords has a "C7" with the notes C-E-B♭ and a Gdim with the notes G-B♭-E. In contrast, an accordion "without" diminished chords has a "C7" with the notes E-G-B♭ which (due to octave wraparound) is the same as Gdim. For the usual Oom-pah style of accordion accompaniment, alternating a bass note of C with chord notes C-E-B♭ or with G-Bb-E is functionally pretty much identical. So much so that there quite a number of French and Italian instruments that rather have a counter-counter-bass row than an extra "diminished" chord row.

It is when you get into chord combining for Jazz chords or try to work with voice leading in the chords that the difference may start making a difference. And then you are not missing the diminished chords (they are just one row up and downards from where they'd be on 4-chord bass) but the "proper" seventh chords without the fifth but with the fundamental.

 

[Salicet]

Thank you to all who have helped me decide which way to go. I will settle for a “C” system instrument. I’m afraid it will have to be second-hand, which creates its own problems. We only have one dealer that I know of in this area that I would call reputable. I certainly would not buy online as you just do not know what you are buying, and I would want to be able to thoroughly check it out before purchasing. I think I am looking for a four-voice LMMH instrument. I'm not sure about registers, particularly on the bass side. In all the dozens of videos I have watched, I have never seen anybody use anything other than the master register on the bass side. So, I wonder how valid they really are. As I said earlier, I would settle for an 80-pass instrument if I could understand how to play diminished chords on it. Many of the tunes that I play use them. I am told that you can use the dominant 7th chord and add a different baas note to it. I have a diagram of an 80-bass accordion, and I can’t see how you can play diminished chords on the bass side of it.

 

[dak]

'A 120 bass instrument is just too big' - I'm sure I've heard it said that in both 96 and 120 the 'bass engine' is the same, just a few extra buttons etc.

Regarding the playing reeds, 8 consecutive basses and counterbasses require a full set of bass notes, and 8 consecutive major chords require a full set of chord notes. So essentially all basses include all the notes. The number of bass buttons still relates to the size of the instrument, the size of the instrument relates to the number of treble notes, the number of treble notes relates to the repertoire the instrument is intended for and its versatility which relates to the number of treble reeds and also to the depth and strength of the bass section in order to form a coherent whole.

So while the number of buttons essentially means nothing, it implies a whole lot.

 

[dak]

I have a diagram of an 80-bass accordion, and I can’t see how you can play diminished chords on the bass side of it.

Instead of Gdim you play "C7". Instead of Cdim you play "F7". And so on. It is trivial. Ditch a sharp and plead the seventh.

 

[Salicet]

Thank you for explaining about using a dominant 7th chord in place of a diminished one. Maybe I am a bit slow, but I still do not understand. According to my diagram of the bass buttons. If I want to play a Cdim and I play an F7th chord, I am playing the notes “F A Eb”. A Cdim7th chord is “C Eb F# A “. So I need to play “ C Eb A” or “C Eb F#”, so I am sorry, but I don’t follow. Can I ask you to explain, please?

 

[dak]

Thank you for explaining about using a dominant 7th chord in place of a diminished one. Maybe I am a bit slow, but I still do not understand. According to my diagram of the bass buttons. If I want to play a Cdim and I play an F7th chord, I am playing the notes “F A Eb”. A Cdim7th chord is “C Eb F# A “. So I need to play “ C Eb A” or “C Eb F#”, so I am sorry, but I don’t follow. Can I ask you to explain, please?

Your diagram is wrong then. What is called a 7th chord is different on accordions with 3 chord rows and accordions with 4 chord rows (unless we are talking really old accordions which have more variations). I repeat: on an accordion with only 3 chord rows, what is called c7 consists of the notes E-G-B♭ and is perfectly suited for serving as a gdim chord. On an accordion with 4 chord rows, what is called c7 consists of the notes C-G-B♭ instead while E-G-B♭ is separately available as gdim.

If you don't believe me, I can make a video. In typical play, this difference in the nature of the seventh chords is inconspicuous, to the degree where players don't even realize it.

 

[Salicet]

Hi Dak, and thank you for explaining. Please understand I am not doubting what you say, and I apologise if you think I was. I am just trying to understand. I do not understand how the notes Eb-G-Bb make a C7 chord. Surely, Eb-G-Bb makes an Eb major triad. While C7 is C-E-G-Bb. I do understand the modern accordions only use three note chords, usually omitting the 5th . So C7 would be C-E-Bb. and a C dim would be C-Eb-A.

 

[dak]

I do not understand how the notes Eb-G-Bb make a C7 chord.

I messed up there and have now corrected the respective post. Of course it is E-G-Bb for a 3-row c7 and 4-row gdim chord while the 4-row c7 chord is C-E-B♭.

 

[Walker]

The reason I asked my question was because I have read that a "B" system instrument is better suited to more serious music, while a "C" system one is better for more popular music, and I wondered if there is any truth in that.

The statement you made above @Salicet is very interesting. I can understand, to an extent, why someone might think this. However, I'm not convinced it is true.

I was also interested by this response by @debra:

That C system is more for light music and B system for serious music is absolute rubbish.

I totally agree with @debra here, because I know there are some phenomenal C system players who can make wonderful music in any style, light and serious. I have seen and heard them play!

However, unfortunately, some folk like to strawman the 'other' position and it's common for folk to state the benefit of their system while wrongly undermining different accordion systems and this leads to stereotyping. However, I think I know a possible reason why such statements are wrongly made about CBA C system (and also the piano accordion).

I thought I would conduct a small piece of research looking at who the winners of the main Coupe Mondiale competition category (the accordion World Cup) first prize were for the last twenty years; from 2004 to 2024. What I discovered was quite interesting.

I discovered that the overwhelming majority of 1st prize winners of the Coupe Mondiale actually play B system button accordion with bayan free bass converter (inverted B system). No other system comes anywhere close to the successes of B system players.

Secondly, in the last 20 years a 'C system' button accordionist has only won the top prize on 1 occasion.

Finally, it is worth noting that piano accordionists have won the Coupe Mondiale first prize 3 times in the last 20 years. Also, all piano accordion winners played either bayan free bass converter (inverted B system free bass) or Quint free bass converter. No piano accordionist has won the top prize in the last two decades using C system free bass converter.

None of this means that CBA C system or piano accordion is not capable of playing serious music. They simply are. However, it might explain why some folk unfairly say such things, even though the actual accordion system might well be less important than many other factors; standard of tuition, different 'culture' towards study, competition and accordion uptake in different regions.

 

[SteveBox]

The 60 and 80 bass are sometimes called the French Stradella system. Hugh Barwell wrote a good article about this in the Free-Reed Journal a while back that discusses the pros and cons. The Journal Link seems to be down, but I was able to grab the article from the Wayback Machine.

 

[saundersbp]

However, unfortunately, some folk like to strawman the 'other' position and it's common for folk to state the benefit of their system while wrongly undermining different accordion systems and this leads to stereotyping

It really depends on the music you want to play.

For example if you want to play some of the Russian accordion masters that wrote great original music for the accordion you'd ideally want a B-system as its that little bit more ergonomic than C-system for that specific music, being the instrument the composer was familiar with. It is entirely possible however on a C-system. Obviously on a piano accordion its possible in theory too but only with a third hand as you can't make the stretches involved in much of the chordal writing in the RH.

If you want to play music with lots of glissandos, the piano system is without rival!

 

[Walker]

It really depends on the music you want to play.

I agree. Also, there has been a great deal of effort by accordion composers in Russia, for an extended period of time, writing specifically for the chromatic button accordion - B system. This gives great advantage to B system players when they have new music written for the system and it's perhaps another reason for the dominance of B system in international competition.

By contrast, there have been relatively few recent composers in the west writing for the strengths of CBA C system or the PA.

However, Gorka Hermosa is an accordion composer who writes a lot of music premiered by accordionists on various systems. He plays C system CBA. Also, he makes his music available on his website, which is awesome.

Here are two examples of recent pieces played by accordionists on different systems:

CBA C system & piano accordion


Piano accordion: