Already looking for my next accordion!

[JeffJetton]

Dims are a "nice to have". There are some folk tunes I play that use them, but they can be worked around - e.g. one tune I play is notated with E˚ but a C7 works almost as well. I was looking at 12x5 and 16x5 bass layouts and just thinking I wouldn't want to be six months down the line and wishing I'd got something with the dim chords.

Many (perhaps even most?) 60-bass accordions voice their 7th chords without the root, so that they can do double-duty as dim chords. For an Edim triad, for example, you could, as you suggested, play the C7 chord button with the E bass button (counterbass of C), and it works perfectly. Or play the regular E bass with A7 to get an Edim7 (without the flat 5, which is the same as what you'd get on a 72-bass).

That said, the weight/size/cost difference between 60-bass and 72-bass isn't usually that much. And there are a few small advantages to having separate, dedicated 7th and dim7 buttons.

 

[vivdunstan]

Many (perhaps even most?) 60-bass accordions voice their 7th chords without the root, so that they can do double-duty as dim chords. For an Edim triad, for example, you could, as you suggested, play the C7 chord button with the E bass button (counterbass of C), and it works perfectly. Or play the regular E bass with A7 to get an Edim7 (without the flat 5, which is the same as what you'd get on a 72-bass).

Yes that's something I can do on my French CBA 60 bass. But I still find it somewhat counter intuitive, and am happier if there's just a diminished button for me to press in the usual row without thinking about alternatives!

 

[Rosie C]

Many (perhaps even most?) 60-bass accordions voice their 7th chords without the root, so that they can do double-duty as dim chords. For an Edim triad, for example, you could, as you suggested, play the C7 chord button with the E bass button (counterbass of C), and it works perfectly. Or play the regular E bass with A7 to get an Edim7 (without the flat 5, which is the same as what you'd get on a 72-bass).

That said, the weight/size/cost difference between 60-bass and 72-bass isn't usually that much. And there are a few small advantages to having separate, dedicated 7th and dim7 buttons.

That's interesting about the 7th chords. I got interested in a 60-button mainly because I was comparing the weights of new Hohner Bravo instruments and the "Bravo II 60" is 5.2kg whereas the "Bravo III 72" is 7.4kg and wanting to keep the weight down I was thinking were the dim chords worth a 50% weight increase.

I couldn't find a 60 key secondhand anywhere, but chatting with a dealer yesterday, I understand the 60 key models aren't imported to the UK. I've arranged to try a newish Hohner Bravo III at one dealer, and also arranged to try some used instruments at a second dealer.

 

[JeffJetton]

the "Bravo II 60" is 5.2kg whereas the "Bravo III 72" is 7.4kg and wanting to keep the weight down I was thinking were the dim chords worth a 50% weight increase.

Going with the II 60 over the III 72 will give up more than just the dim buttons. The II 60 is smaller overall than the III 72, with fewer right-hand keys (26 vs 34), and it's missing the bassoon reed block (so only two different treble registers vs. five). It's probably those things more than the basses that account for the weight difference.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Thomann imports Bravo II 60-bass accordions to the UK. If you went with them I would get it clear in writing by email that the instrument will be new and unused in the packaging, that they will check it before shipping to be sure everything is ok and will cancel the sale if it is not, and be clear about the return policy. BTW, a small issue with a newly delivered instrumet is IMHO not a reason to return it--as poster debra has noted, this is not unusual even with Italian made accordions, and one should expect to need to take a new instrument for a tiny tweak. (I'm talking small issues here--say, the tremolo is too sharp on a couple of notes, or a couple of notes on an MM are only sounding on one key, that kind of thing.)

I have dealt with London's Allodi accordions and find them very trustworthy. I don't think I've ever seen a Bravo 60-bass listed there, but they always have the other Bravos, and also stock small Weltmeisters on both the new and used pages. You might really like the 30/72 LMM Juwel--at 13.5 pounds it is lighter than the Bravo III 72, and equally importantly in the comfort department, it is smaller, and lower in height when held on one's lap or on straps when standing. I would totally try one and compare your comfort factor with the Bravo III 34/72.

The vintage Hohners can be awesome and can be a great option. But the older they are, their cabinets and bellows can also be quite stiff compared to today's Bravo line or today's Weltmeisters, and things in the internals or reeds or action can need more work than makes sense--it really just depends on the individual instrument. If you are within easy reach of someone knowledgeable to vet the instrument, and within easy reach of a tech to perform any needed work, they're well worth considering with that caveat.

I see on their Used page that Allodi has a two-voice 34/72 MM Hohner Concerto IIS in stock at a reasonable price. I'd be interested in learning details of its condition from Mr. A. The older generations of the Concertos did not have letters after the model name, the letters were used for the last 3 generations before production left West Germany. There were Concerto IINs and IIINs. Then Concerto IIS and IIIS, and lastly Concerto IIT and IIIT. The keys on the "S" generation were very slightly narrower than the full 20mm standard width. If that box is in pristine condition it could be wonderful to have. There's also a heavier 34/72 LMM IIIN too.

 

[Rosie C]

I see on their Used page that Allodi has a two-voice 34/72 MM Hohner Concerto IIS in stock at a reasonable price. I'd be interested in learning details of its condition from Mr. A. The older generations of the Concertos did not have letters after the model name, the letters were used for the last 3 generations before production left West Germany. There were Concerto IINs and IIINs. Then Concerto IIS and IIIS, and lastly Concerto IIT and IIIT. The keys on the "S" generation were very slightly narrower than the full 20mm standard width. If that box is in pristine condition it could be wonderful to have. There's also a heavier 34/72 LMM IIIN too.

Thank you for that pointer - that is a very nice looking instrument, I'll follow it up!

I'm a little nervous mail-ordering an instrument. I bought a mandocello from a well-known company in mainland Europe and ended up having to pay myself to repair a cracked neck.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Yes, I understand the unease about long-distance purchasing. I've had good experiences but also some wincers. I'm going to have a questionable bellows replaced in my own region because doing the math in coin as well as stress, the cost seems at least equal if not cheaper than paying to ship the item long-distance and back. Seems like a visit to Allodi might be within reach for you? One could plan ahead and budget time to try lots of examples. A nice advantage on your side of the pond is that accordion dealers and opportunities to try different models and sizes in person seem thicker on the ground with just a couple hours of travel.

 

[Dingo40]

Before buying, just find out what pitch it's tuned to and how that compares with the other players' instruments in your group.
Nothing worse than having a player out of tune with the group
See here:

Concert pitch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rosie C]

Seems like a visit to Allodi might be within reach for you? One could plan ahead and budget time to try lots of examples. A nice advantage on your side of the pond is that accordion dealers and opportunities to try different models and sizes in person seem thicker on the ground with just a couple hours of travel.

There are quite a few within a 2 hour radius. Being something of a country mouse, London is a bit outside my comfort zone, but looking at their website it does look like Allodi have some nice instruments at reasonable prices. I can get the train and have a day out!

Before buying, just find out what pitch it's tuned to and how that compares with the other players' instruments in your group.
Nothing worse than having a player out of tune with the group

Good point! I took a digital tuner when I bought my little Scarlatti - it's about 20 cents sharp uniformly across the treble keys, but then I only play it with one mandolin player and he's happy to tune to it. But it certainly could be a problem with other ensembles.

 

[JKJ]

There are quite a few within a 2 hour radius. Being something of a country mouse, London is a bit outside my comfort zone,

Yikes, I know what you mean. On one of our many trips to England our travel agent, my Lovely Bride, rented a car with a stick shift. Well, I’m comfortable with driving a stick but in the middle of London, driving from the right seat, shifting with the “wrong” hand, negotiating a crowded multi-lane roundabout while trying to figure out which exit I needed while surrounded on all sides by impatient drivers honking at me for not keeping up with the high-speed bumper-to-bumper spiraling flow — I almost lost my sanity. I was never so glad to get out in the countryside!! Never again, next time I’ll insist on an automatic. And research the back road routs instead of follow the evil GPS.

In your situation I would certainly visit the music stores BUT engage a friend (pay, bribe, call in a favor) to do the driving! Or pay for a taxi.

 

[Rosie C]

@JKJ I wouldn't drive in London and I live in the UK, so you have my sympathy! I briefly worked in the USA but our hire cars were automatic and I found the American roads to be wide and easy to drive on.

We've been studying travel options, it looks like we'll drive about half the distance to London then park up and take a train, which will get us to less than a mile from Allodi's shop. It will certainly be an adventure!

 

[Rosie C]

I see on their Used page that Allodi has a two-voice 34/72 MM Hohner Concerto IIS in stock at a reasonable price. I'd be interested in learning details of its condition from Mr. A.

Apparently it is in excellent condition, and comes with a 3 year guarantee! Thanks for taking the time to point me in the direction of it, it's now put aside for me until I can get up to London

 

[OuijaBoard]

The whole jaunt sounds like so much fun! Here's hoping this or one of the other offerings turns out to be a wonderful fit. Keep us posted, we're suckers for the accordion picaresque!

 

[Pipemajor]

Yikes, I know what you mean. On one of our many trips to England our travel agent, my Lovely Bride, rented a car with a stick shift. Well, I’m comfortable with driving a stick but in the middle of London, driving from the right seat, shifting with the “wrong” hand, negotiating a crowded multi-lane roundabout while trying to figure out which exit I needed while surrounded on all sides by impatient drivers honking at me for not keeping up with the high-speed bumper-to-bumper spiraling flow — I almost lost my sanity. I was never so glad to get out in the countryside!! Never again, next time I’ll insist on an automatic. And research the back road routs instead of follow the evil GPS.

In your situation I would certainly visit the music stores BUT engage a friend (pay, bribe, call in a favor) to do the driving! Or pay for a taxi.

If you think London is bad you want to try the Periferique ring road in Paris and also central Paris.
London is like Sunday afternoon driving in comparison

 

[Ventura]

je Proteste ! sil vous plait !

we did quite well driving in Paris.. our plan was simple and effective !

after a tour and overnight in Chateau Thierry, i drove into the Cirty
then any direction the traffic took us was fine, as soon as we spotted a
Parking Space (anywhere) we took it.

after walking around and enjoying whatever we found, we then
drove some-more until we spotted another parking space and we took it !

we did this for several days and never ran out of Ooo La La
c'est Magnifique !

did the same plan in other big European cities with similar wonderful results

 

[JKJ]

If you think London is bad you want to try the Periferique ring road in Paris and also central Paris.
London is like Sunday afternoon driving in comparison

I don’t ever plan to drive in Paris. I’ve seen too much craziness, even on foot. In fact, I think I’ve already had a lifetime dose of Paris.

We usually rent a car in England because we spend most of the time exploring the countryside, same as in Scotland. In Italy we love to drive thru the mountains, stay at B&Bs, explore the lakes, castles and such, shop for cheese and such, visit friends in the north. Next trip I maybe I’ll check out the accordion capitol of the world!

JKJ

 

[Rosie C]

Here we are!

 

[Rosie C]

Phew! Things have been a bit busy since I posted the photo of the Allodi shop. We had grand plans to have a day out in London - buy an accordion, then have a pleasant afternoon on the South Bank. We had a great time in Allodi - Emilio was very helpful and knowledgeable. But, it was the UK's hottest day of the year and I hadn't really comprehended how heavy a 6kg accordion in a case would be, so we braved the temperatures but headed straight back to the station.

The Hohner came with its original hard case - which looks like it might house a World War II Enigma machine. I bought a gig bag as well for it (more to carry). It has two treble registers and 72 bass buttons. My first impressions are very good - the bellows take a lot less effort than my 12-bass yet make more air! The tuning is spot on and the reeds react more quickly. The treble is a little quiet if I don't use the tremolo register but maybe better technique will fix that. I've not played it too much yet as our Morris side are dancing in 10 days time and I don't think I'll have time to be able to play it well enough for public performance by then.

 

[vivdunstan]

Really pleased you’ve got a good one. All the best for the future!

 

[JerryPH]

That's awesome that you found something that makes you happy and gives you more options! Good luck with your new Hohner!