Are professional Excelsior models undervalued?

[xingfan1227]

Hi, I'm new here, though not a new accordion player

When I look around at the top of the line accordion models (talking about PAs), I have noticed that the Excelsior ones (such as Symphony, Symphony Grand, AC Continental) all seem to sell less than the top of the line models of other brands in the similar era. Is that generally true or am I just making that up?

If it's true, why is that? (First of all.. is that because I'm in the USA?) In my understanding, these Excelsior accordions are considered the very best of all time, right?

 

[colinm]

I think they appear to be larger and heavier, which does not go down well with todays aging accordion playing population

 

[Ventura]

1: the current available data set for overall valuing of accordions is miniscule,
fractured, at retail controlled by a very few who tend to use
an opportunistic price model.. the mid-level pricing of eBay and
such are rife with ridiculous numbers and perpetual re-listing to
where many prices that may appear to be relevant because they
are on the internet, are actually simply sucker prices by very greedy
and professional scammers.. buyer beware.. i can point to literally
dozens of accordions in New York, Philadelphia etc. where the same
adverts have been online re-listed over and over for 3 years or more..
it costs them nearly nothing to keep them going, and every once in awhile
they score big on some new sucker

2: Excelsior always priced their accordions realistically, and based
on cost of manufacture, so they were better values at retail to
begin with, and if you set a used price based on their original
retail, that is less than comparable pseudo legendary accordions
One of our members here ordered a fully customized top of the line
unit through Castiglione near the end of the CEMEX period and it
was quite reasonably priced.. amazingly priced compared to Seattle actually..

3: Excelsior was fully vertically integrated, which was rare even in the
golden age, and so their costs of manufacture were lower and much
more under control..

 

[Scuromondo]

In in my understanding, these Excelsior accordions are considered the very best of all time, right?

I do not think that you would get concurrence (on this forum at least) that any one accordion brand has built “the very best of all time.”

But I think it would be fair to say that some players would definitely consider some model years of some Excelsior accordions to be among the best.

 

[isorry123]

I really like my LMM excelsior, would recommend. It’s an old model accordiana

 

[Thomas N]

Point of reference:

I paid US $7200 for a brand new custom Excelsior in 2003. Essentially an Excelsior 960 but with customization that makes it look like an AC Continental with multiple additional upgrades. It's a 5/5 top of the line Excelsior and it is heavy - 31.2 lbs with straps and I agree with ColinM. It's definitely a detriment to play a large and heavy accordion. The sound is incredible and it's a marvelous instrument, but when I look at it sitting next to my FR-8X I pick up the FR-8X 95% of the time.

 

[John M]

Point of reference:

I paid US $7200 for a brand new custom Excelsior in 2003. Essentially an Excelsior 960 but with customization that makes it look like an AC Continental with multiple additional upgrades. It's a 5/5 top of the line Excelsior and it is heavy - 31.2 lbs with straps and I agree with ColinM. It's definitely a detriment to play a large and heavy accordion. The sound is incredible and it's a marvelous instrument, but when I look at it sitting next to my FR-8X I pick up the FR-8X 95% of the time.

Identical for me -- 95% to 5% -- my 8X vs. my 960. For me, it's because of the wide choice of sounds/tones/customization I can get with my 8X. My 960 sounds great, but it is still an acoustic, and there is only so much variation in sound you can get with 5 reeds.

 

[Ignacchitti]

Shhhh, let them charge little for those great Excelsiors

Seriously though, I think Excelsior's reputation went down a bit after they moved to Italy (was that in the late 60s?), word around town is that since then it no longer offered the fantastic products they once did. Maybe that affected the subsequent pricing of old models, as the name was a bit tarnished? I am no expert but what I understand is: originally Excelsiors and Excelsiolas (and to a degree even Accordianas) were great. Then, there was a period in which only Excelsiors can be considered great. Then not even that...

I have an Excelsiola from the great period, potent a mano reeds, all chromed bass mechanics, fantastic sounding tone chamber, and no one can believe how little I paid for it. A Petosa of equivalent quality and of equivalent age is literally more than 3x the price. But then again, with Petosa you are paying for the decades of advertising.

 

[xingfan1227]

1: the current available data set for overall valuing of accordions is miniscule,
fractured, at retail controlled by a very few who tend to use
an opportunistic price model.. the mid-level pricing of eBay and
such are rife with ridiculous numbers and perpetual re-listing to
where many prices that may appear to be relevant because they
are on the internet, are actually simply sucker prices by very greedy
and professional scammers.. buyer beware.. i can point to literally
dozens of accordions in New York, Philadelphia etc. where the same
adverts have been online re-listed over and over for 3 years or more..
it costs them nearly nothing to keep them going, and every once in awhile
they score big on some new sucker

2: Excelsior always priced their accordions realistically, and based
on cost of manufacture, so they were better values at retail to
begin with, and if you set a used price based on their original
retail, that is less than comparable pseudo legendary accordions
One of our members here ordered a fully customized top of the line
unit through Castiglione near the end of the CEMEX period and it
was quite reasonably priced.. amazingly priced compared to Seattle actually..

3: Excelsior was fully vertically integrated, which was rare even in the
golden age, and so their costs of manufacture were lower and much
more under control..

Wow.. very interesting read!

 

[xingfan1227]

I think they appear to be larger and heavier, which does not go down well with todays aging accordion playing population

Mine is an AC Continental, and I have another 120/41 one but I never really paid attention to the weights. Now I'm very curious, will weigh them tomorrow wheni get home

 

[xingfan1227]

Point of reference:

I paid US $7200 for a brand new custom Excelsior in 2003. Essentially an Excelsior 960 but with customization that makes it look like an AC Continental with multiple additional upgrades. It's a 5/5 top of the line Excelsior and it is heavy - 31.2 lbs with straps and I agree with ColinM. It's definitely a detriment to play a large and heavy accordion. The sound is incredible and it's a marvelous instrument, but when I look at it sitting next to my FR-8X I pick up the FR-8X 95% of the time.

I never played a digital one before.. always kinda wanted one but could never justify the purchase

 

[xingfan1227]

Shhhh, let them charge little for those great Excelsiors

Seriously though, I think Excelsior's reputation went down a bit after they moved to Italy (was that in the late 60s?), word around town is that since then it no longer offered the fantastic products they once did. Maybe that affected the subsequent pricing of old models, as the name was a bit tarnished? I am no expert but what I understand is: originally Excelsiors and Excelsiolas (and to a degree even Accordianas) were great. Then, there was a period in which only Excelsiors can be considered great. Then not even that...

I have an Excelsiola from the great period, potent a mano reeds, all chromed bass mechanics, fantastic sounding tone chamber, and no one can believe how little I paid for it. A Petosa of equivalent quality and of equivalent age is literally more than 3x the price. But then again, with Petosa you are paying for the decades of advertising.

Hahaha yeah I enjoy my ac continental quite a bit. I wish I have more chances to try other brands.. would be nice to compare it against other great ones.

 

[debra]

Excelsior made great accordions, but one thing they did not focus on was to keep the weight down. And that also shows on the Hohner Morino N and S series which Excelsior built. These two series were quite good but heavy compared to some other Italian brands. (Hohner managed to sell them for quite a bit more than comparable Excelsior models and still sell a lot more of them than Excelsior did with their Excelsior-branded accordions...) I can only comment on Excelsior accordions from after production moved to Italy (and before Pigini took over Excelsior completely).

 

[PhiliGol]

I fully agree Paul.
Had the pleasure to intensively test a Symphony Gold.
I liked a lot it's sound, the key feeling (no wonder I came from a Hohner Morino), the sardine feature.
Was close to buy it but finally refrained because of ...
its weight.
I was exactly looking for something more handy, lighter being used a MORINO V with her 14kg (31lbs).
The Symphony Gold undisputedly would have been an upgrade in terms of sound but not really a downgrade in weight.

 

[xingfan1227]

Excelsior made great accordions, but one thing they did not focus on was to keep the weight down. And that also shows on the Hohner Morino N and S series which Excelsior built. These two series were quite good but heavy compared to some other Italian brands. (Hohner managed to sell them for quite a bit more than comparable Excelsior models and still sell a lot more of them than Excelsior did with their Excelsior-branded accordions...) I can only comment on Excelsior accordions from after production moved to Italy (and before Pigini took over Excelsior completely).

I fully agree Paul.
Had the pleasure to intensively test a Symphony Gold.
I liked a lot it's sound, the key feeling (no wonder I came from a Hohner Morino), the sardine feature.
Was close to buy it but finally refrained because of ...
its weight.
I was exactly looking for something more handy, lighter being used a MORINO V with her 14kg (31lbs).
The Symphony Gold undisputedly would have been an upgrade in terms of sound but not really a downgrade in weight.

I just weighed my excelsio AC continental, and it's 29.5 lb (including straps). I'm guessing that's considered pretty heavy? I always play sitting down so I never felt it was overly heavy.

I don't know the exact age but from my research these are USA-made in the early 1960s?

 

[Ignacchitti]

I just weighed my excelsio AC continental, and it's 29.5 lb (including straps). I'm guessing that's considered pretty heavy? I always play sitting down so I never felt it was overly heavy.

I don't know the exact age but from my research these are USA-made in the early 1960s?

In the early 1960s Excelsior still had the "old" grille design and the "new" one.
The picture shows accordions with 3 bass switches only but the same applies to more expensive models with more switches.

29.5lb (13.4kg) is on the heavy side indeed, it is possible for an equivalent accordion to be 26.5lb or under.

 

[xingfan1227]

In the early 1960s Excelsior still had the "old" grille design and the "new" one.
The picture shows accordions with 3 bass switches only but the same applies to more expensive models with more switches.

29.5lb (13.4kg) is on the heavy side indeed, it is possible for an equivalent accordion to be 26.5lb or under.

So the left/middle ones are the "old design" and the one on the right is the"new" design?

 

[Thomas N]

So the left/middle ones are the "old design" and the one on the right is the"new" design?

Right one looks like the AC Continental Grill. Not sure if it changed over the years. My 960 has that same front grill because I like the look and customized it that way.

 

[Squeezeplay]

In my humble opinion, there is nothing better than a US made Excelsior Symphony. The weight doesn’t seem an issue, it is so well balanced,, I am almost 80, and it’s no problem to play it for three or four hours. Yes it weighs a few pounds more than my Victoria, but I don’t notice it, actually , I have a Roland FR 3 X, and my Symphony doesn’t “ feel “ heavier once I have it on my shoulders.

 

[debra]

I fully agree Paul.
Had the pleasure to intensively test a Symphony Gold.
I liked a lot it's sound, the key feeling (no wonder I came from a Hohner Morino), the sardine feature.
Was close to buy it but finally refrained because of ...
its weight.
I was exactly looking for something more handy, lighter being used a MORINO V with her 14kg (31lbs).
The Symphony Gold undisputedly would have been an upgrade in terms of sound but not really a downgrade in weight.

Until now my heaviest accordion (Hohner Artiste X S, made by Excelsior) top (dwarfs?) all the others mentioned here. It weighs in at a full 18kg. It is very solid (Excelsior used pretty thick wood) has 56 notes in 5 voices on the treble side and 185 bass buttons including 58 notes in MIII melody bass. My Russian bayan (64 treble notes, 4 voice) weighs "only" 16kg.
Don't make the comparison with what is listed in accordion catalogs today. Every accordion manufacturer tends to underestimate the true weight of their accordions (deliberately, because potential customers are looking for lighter instruments).