Are there disadvantages to installing condenser mics to the inside of the accordion?

[SeattleOwl]

Hi everyone! I’m new to the forum. I’ve had the same Titano accordion from the 1970’s for many years. I’ve increasingly been playing in clubs with bands, and I feel it’s time for me to get an accordion that plugs directly into a PA. I’ve done some research, and I think the best choice for me is to have installed something like the Harmonik AC501-HQ.

What I’m not sure about is if I should install it in my beloved Titano- the only accordion I’ve ever owned- or if I should get a second accordion. Are there any disadvantages to installing condenser mics to the inside of the accordion?

 

[JerryPH]

disadvantages:
- complete stereo separation pretty much impossible
- bad install susceptible to leaks

advantages:
- single "omni" mic needed to capture both hands
- much reduced chance of feedback due to being hidden from ambient noise
- lower cost for the hardware since less is needed

My Morino has a single internal mic... works well. My Beltuna has separate stereo setup. For public performances stereo is less of an issue if you are playing for someone else and easier to set up. Home recordings highly benefit from a stereo setup with individual controls, the end results are far superior.

 

[losthobos]

My Morino has a single internal mic... works well.

Tell me about this single internal mic Inc placement.... preferably in total idiot terminology if possible.... interested for myself.... doesn't need to be too flash as I'm of an age smart enough to know "you can't polish a turd"
Appreciated Terry

 

[JerryPH]

Hey Terry, with pleasure. The only 2 things to watch for are to not place the mic on anything that can transmit a lot of vibrations in to the mic and to be super careful of air leaks. Because the mic is contained within the "bellows area" it captures the left and right hands easily enough even with large bellows like on my Morino VI N.

A picture is worth a thousand words... lol:

Factory original. This dead mic was replaced with a mic cabsule from another mic


Remove the factory mic. This rubber part came from Hohner. If possible I would suggest a little DIY and creating something similar:


This is the mic capsule from a mic I had laying around:


Once installed:


From the factory, there is a plug that is air-tight and that the factory connector/cable clamps on to:


You would need to drill in to the area that is accessible inside the case or drill from under the grill in to the inner case to pass the wire in and use a bit of good silicone to seal the hole on both sides and then drill a hole in the grill to which you could attach the plug to. Since you are talking MONO, a single 1/4" female mono plug is all that gets placed on the accordion.

To get it working on an amp this is all that you would need, however the output is low if you want to record from this, so an external pre-amp makes all the difference. There are a ton of options out there, but I use this and it works great!:





Hope that helps some!

 

[Zevy]

Most of my accordions have internal mics. After installation by a professional, the only disadvantage I can think of is that in case you have a second grill for the same accordion (as I have with my Petosa), you have to decide which grill will be the one with the mics and controls.

 

[JerryPH]

Most of my accordions have internal mics. After installation by a professional, the only disadvantage I can think of is that in case you have a second grill for the same accordion (as I have with my Petosa), you have to decide which grill will be the one with the mics and controls.

If your mics are on the grill those are technically still "external" (though they are INTERNAL to the accordion cover... lol). By internal, I meant mounting right on a reed block inside the accordion... cannot get anymore internal than that... lol

 

[losthobos]

Thankyou @JerryPH
Truly appreciated....I've tried loads of clip ones and side by sides but they are all more work and hassle than my bullshido playing deserves or requires..
Less is more....I'll crack on with your advice when I find a tasty capsule

 

[SteveBox]

I think the best choice for me is to have installed something like the Harmonik AC501-HQ

The Harmonik system is an under the grill microphone system using 5 mics, not inside the bellows. There is another mic for the bass. I don't have one of these, but I do have something similar. I suspect it sounds better than any of the inside the bellows microphones being discussed. Since the Harmonik has active electronics, no external preamp should be needed.

 

[debra]

If your mics are on the grill those are technically still "external" (though they are INTERNAL to the accordion cover... lol). By internal, I meant mounting right on a reed block inside the accordion... cannot get anymore internal than that... lol

To me mics that are under the grille are internal. They require some "disassembly" to reach them.
When mics are mounted on the outside of the grille I call them external. The Microvox mics I have used for many years (and still occasionally use) are placed on the outside of the grille (or bass compartiment) using velcro. Note the word "outside", so they are external.
A mic that's installed inside the accordion on a reed block is the absolute best solution to avoid unwanted sound feedback, but is also the absolute worst solution to capture the sound that comes out of the accordion.
In the past bass accordions were often fitted with an internal microphone, inside the bellows. They invariably produce a horrible sound.

 

[SeattleOwl]

In the past bass accordions were often fitted with an internal microphone, inside the bellows. They invariably produce a horrible sound.

My lack of knowledge is starting to show- can you explain what you mean by bass accordion?

 

[JerryPH]

My lack of knowledge is starting to show- can you explain what you mean by bass accordion?

An accordion that has no buttons on the left hand and the right hand has some very long and deep reeds on it.

 

[debra]

My lack of knowledge is starting to show- can you explain what you mean by bass accordion?

The bass accordion is a special instrument. It has only a "treble" side, but with low notes, going down as low as a double base (that's down to C1). In accordion ensembles and orchestras the bass accordion is always amplified so it needs to have mics. In the past bass accordions often had a single mid inside. That resulted mostly in picking up the lowest sounds, cutting out all the higher frequencies (harmonics) that you do hear on the outside of the instrument. The resulting sound of a mic inside (the bellows) is always dreadful compared to the sound the accordion really makes.

 

[SteveBox]

The original question was "Are there disadvantages to installing condenser mics to the inside of the accordion?"

If you have electret condenser microphones under the grill, there is an unexpected problem that I discovered, but you will probably not experience this unless you have a very compact accordion with little spacing between the pallets and the grill. Any microphone has a maximum sound level before it will distort. Typically, this is around 120 dB SPL (sound pressure level), but it might be somewhat higher or lower. Now 120 db is deafening, at the human pain limit. So no worries, your accordion is not that loud, right? You might be wrong about this, from the microphone's point of view. If it was possible to place your ear right next to and in between the pallets while playing, it could sound very loud indeed. Since SPL decreases with the cube of the distance, pull your ear away only a few inches, and the sound level becomes more comfortable. But right at the pallets, where the sound comes out, it could be very loud.

I had a Limex microphone system installed in my compact CBA once, but there was so little space behind the grill that the installer arranged the 10 electret condenser capsules (which were on short wire stubs) so they were nestled between the pallets, almost touching the faceplate. For a few years, I presumed my amp was not very good, because it never sounded good to me. Then I was researching microphones once and read a comment that electret microphones were notorious for distorting at high SPLs. So, I soon determined that was the problem. If I removed the grill, and using foam blocks and tape, positioned it and the microphones out an inch or so away, then it sounded just fine through the amp.

Most of you can ignore this story, unless you have a very compact accordion, as most instruments will have adequate space behind the grill for the microphones.

I no longer use the Limex microphones. I replaced them with my own design using tiny solid-state MEMS microphones (the type found in cell phones). There are some available that are high-fidelity with low noise and the ability to handle high SPLs. They are small enough that they can be adequately spaced away from the pallets in a compact accordion. I think they sound good, with no distortion.

 

[SeattleOwl]

The bass accordion is a special instrument. It has only a "treble" side, but with low notes, going down as low as a double base (that's down to C1). In accordion ensembles and orchestras the bass accordion is always amplified so it needs to have mics. In the past bass accordions often had a single mid inside. That resulted mostly in picking up the lowest sounds, cutting out all the higher frequencies (harmonics) that you do hear on the outside of the instrument. The resulting sound of a mic inside (the bellows) is always dreadful compared to the sound the accordion really makes.

Oh very cool! Thank you for that explanation

 

[SeattleOwl]

The original question was "Are there disadvantages to installing condenser mics to the inside of the accordion?"

If you have electret condenser microphones under the grill, there is an unexpected problem that I discovered, but you will probably not experience this unless you have a very compact accordion with little spacing between the pallets and the grill. Any microphone has a maximum sound level before it will distort. Typically, this is around 120 dB SPL (sound pressure level), but it might be somewhat higher or lower. Now 120 db is deafening, at the human pain limit. So no worries, your accordion is not that loud, right? You might be wrong about this, from the microphone's point of view. If it was possible to place your ear right next to and in between the pallets while playing, it could sound very loud indeed. Since SPL decreases with the cube of the distance, pull your ear away only a few inches, and the sound level becomes more comfortable. But right at the pallets, where the sound comes out, it could be very loud.

I had a Limex microphone system installed in my compact CBA once, but there was so little space behind the grill that the installer arranged the 10 electret condenser capsules (which were on short wire stubs) so they were nestled between the pallets, almost touching the faceplate. For a few years, I presumed my amp was not very good, because it never sounded good to me. Then I was researching microphones once and read a comment that electret microphones were notorious for distorting at high SPLs. So, I soon determined that was the problem. If I removed the grill, and using foam blocks and tape, positioned it and the microphones out an inch or so away, then it sounded just fine through the amp.

Most of you can ignore this story, unless you have a very compact accordion, as most instruments will have adequate space behind the grill for the microphones.

I no longer use the Limex microphones. I replaced them with my own design using tiny solid-state MEMS microphones (the type found in cell phones). There are some available that are high-fidelity with low noise and the ability to handle high SPLs. They are small enough that they can be adequately spaced away from the pallets in a compact accordion. I think they sound good, with no distortion.

Ah, very interesting. Thank you!

 

[SeattleOwl]

disadvantages:
- complete stereo separation pretty much impossible
- bad install susceptible to leaks

advantages:
- single "omni" mic needed to capture both hands
- much reduced chance of feedback due to being hidden from ambient noise
- lower cost for the hardware since less is needed

My Morino has a single internal mic... works well. My Beltuna has separate stereo setup. For public performances stereo is less of an issue if you are playing for someone else and easier to set up. Home recordings highly benefit from a stereo setup with individual controls, the end results are far superior.

That’s very helpful, thank you!

 

[debra]

The original question was "Are there disadvantages to installing condenser mics to the inside of the accordion?"

If you have electret condenser microphones under the grill, there is an unexpected problem that I discovered, but you will probably not experience this unless you have a very compact accordion with little spacing between the pallets and the grill. Any microphone has a maximum sound level before it will distort. Typically, this is around 120 dB SPL (sound pressure level), but it might be somewhat higher or lower. ,,,

So far I have not yet experienced an issue with the maximum sound level. The overall sound level could perhaps become too loud when several notes very close to a single capsule are played loudly at the same time, but normally even with the loudest chords more than one capsule will pick up the different notes of the chord.
But there is another problem with the "very little spacing between the pallets and the grill". When some modern mic systems (like for instance the Harmonik system or AZS system or the Caverna Eletrificações system) appear to have just enough space between the pallets and the grill the register mechanism may get in the way. On one end of the keyboard (can be at the low notes or the high notes) the movement of register sliders to the transfer box (from outside to inside) is done with rods that go *diagonally* and may impede the placement of the mic system. Only systems with too few capsules (like the common 3-capsule Sennheiser system) are short enough to not reach the diagonal rods.
Accordion makers are sometimes going a bit "overboard" with making accordions compact, leaving no room for mic systems.

 

[JerryPH]

It is near impossible for an accordion to get anywhere near those sound levels. Think pro car audio with a 2,000 watt audio system… that’s what I had in a previous car, could only hit 118db and that was LOUD. For comparison, an airplane jet engine at take-off from 6 feet away generates 140db.

 

[SteveBox]

It is near impossible for an accordion to get anywhere near those sound levels.

Agreed, this would be true at any possible listening position. But if you were an ant and could place yourself right next to a pallet (where my microphones had been placed), it would sound very loud. Some microphones might distort well below 120 dB. I suspect Limex used inexpensive mic capsules, which were probably not designed for very high SPLs.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

In olden times some accordions had only the bass amplified. To amplify the treble you used a stage mic on a stand, usually while standing, a la a vocalist.