Badinerie again. But this time with my teacher's UPG

[breezybellows]

My teacher Joe Natoli programmed a new user program for this Bach music. He actually gave me a second setting as well that adds a harpsichord for the second section. I haven't gotten used to smoothly applying the chin switch yet. So I've only used the first one.


I am very impressed with this sound. Especially the balance between the Cello and the Flute. What do you think?

 

[dak]

Well, to make this work, you need to make the cello phrasing a bit more portato. I know how annoying it is to take the hands apart again after you have automated them to run together, but try focusing only on the left hand for a while again. If you can, by playing it alone in order not to have the distraction from the right hand sounds (well, you could switch them off but they'll still occupy motor skills).

"Playing a cello" and "playing a flute" should be more than switching a patch/program. Like it is more than switching a register on an acoustic accordion. The phrasing has to go along. So when changing this from a flute duet to flute/cello, the flute should keep its sprightliness while the cello gains some gravitas. If my teacher pesters me with that kind of thing on my acoustic instrument, I feel fully justified annoying digital players with that message.

Have fun!

 

[breezybellows]

Well, to make this work, you need to make the cello phrasing a bit more portato. I know how annoying it is to take the hands apart again after you have automated them to run together, but try focusing only on the left hand for a while again. If you can, by playing it alone in order not to have the distraction from the right hand sounds (well, you could switch them off but they'll still occupy motor skills).

"Playing a cello" and "playing a flute" should be more than switching a patch/program. Like it is more than switching a register on an acoustic accordion. The phrasing has to go along. So when changing this from a flute duet to flute/cello, the flute should keep its sprightliness while the cello gains some gravitas. If my teacher pesters me with that kind of thing on my acoustic instrument, I feel fully justified annoying digital players with that message.

Have fun!

The music I learned it from has the bass notes marked staccato all through. I have no idea what portato is. I need to look it up.

To clarify, I'm not a digital player. I play digital 10% of the time. This was a piece that I picked up on my own (against the advice of my teacher). So I need to point out that he hasn't really cleared me on this yet

 

[dak]

The music I learned it from has the bass notes marked staccato all through. I have no idea what portato is. I need to look it up.

To clarify, I'm not a digital player. I play digital 10% of the time. This was a piece that I picked up on my own (against the advice of my teacher). So I need to point out that he hasn't really cleared me on this yet

Portato is detached but not staccato. It doesn't really matter what the music is marked with: you want to sound like a cello, and even then, a cello staccato has a different length from a flute staccato.

You'll actually want to do the same on an acoustic: use a cassotto single reed in the right hand with flute articulation and a sonorific left hand (that doesn't overpower the right which might become tricky) with cello articulation. The digital accordion takes you half the way there by how the patches sound, but it should not seduce you into not doing what you can to support the impression.

 

[breezybellows]

Portato is detached but not staccato. It doesn't really matter what the music is marked with: you want to sound like a cello, and even then, a cello staccato has a different length from a flute staccato.

You'll actually want to do the same on an acoustic: use a cassotto single reed in the right hand with flute articulation and a sonorific left hand (that doesn't overpower the right which might become tricky) with cello articulation. The digital accordion takes you half the way there by how the patches sound, but it should not seduce you into not doing what you can to support the impression.

When I play out on my acoustic Petosa, I noticed that I make far fewer mistakes if I use the MM (unison tuned) on the left side and LM on the bass side. With the single voice register in the free bass, I think there is a tiny lag that throws me off. On my Giulietti the single voice bass registration works fine even at higher speeds. I had that one serviced recently to do a full retuning and voicing

Maybe I should have that done for this Petosa as well. The original owner passed away more then ten years ago and it hasn't been played. When I just play it, it feels like it's responding better than the Giulietti but when I play Badinerie, it falls apart.

 

[dak]

With pieces that are essentially committed to muscle memory, I try focusing very much on what I hear while not trying to think about what the fingers do. I hope that this ends up with my fingers compensating for lag, assuming that the instrument is tuned/adjusted well enough that the lag is predictable (does not depend on push/pull or the individual notes rather than the general pitch). That leads to some tendency to play louder as I go deeper. I hope I'll eventually end up with compensation that is more sophisticated.

 

[breezybellows]

With pieces that are essentially committed to muscle memory, I try focusing very much on what I hear while not trying to think about what the fingers do. I hope that this ends up with my fingers compensating for lag, assuming that the instrument is tuned/adjusted well enough that the lag is predictable (does not depend on push/pull or the individual notes rather than the general pitch). That leads to some tendency to play louder as I go deeper. I hope I'll eventually end up with compensation that is more sophisticated.

This is how I play it on acoustic.

 

[dak]

This is how I play it on acoustic.

Ok, of course this is quite a matter of taste, but that being said... If you want to mimic flute articulation, runs will be pretty much legato (but without any overlap) while jumps will be detached (runs are played on uninterrupted breath while jumps often require different pressure/embouchure). And I'd try playing the "cello" notes a bit longer. Again runs will be mostly legato.

The end is a bit puzzling to me: the "flute" stays pretty much like what I'd expect while the "cello" becomes rushed and somewhat erratic. I have no idea what could cause that discrepancy. The fix likely involves focusing on the "cello" and trying to get its phrasing/articulation/rendition really self-consistent.

Of course this begs the question what the point is in mimicking other instruments' articulation in the first place. I find it a charming challenge on the acoustic instrument, and it will better serve the sounds you pick on the digital instrument. I actually am more intrigued by the acoustic performance, but of course we know that this need not be the case for the average audience.

Good work either way.

 

[breezybellows]

Ok, of course this is quite a matter of taste, but that being said... If you want to mimic flute articulation, runs will be pretty much legato (but without any overlap) while jumps will be detached (runs are played on uninterrupted breath while jumps often require different pressure/embouchure). And I'd try playing the "cello" notes a bit longer. Again runs will be mostly legato.

The end is a bit puzzling to me: the "flute" stays pretty much like what I'd expect while the "cello" becomes rushed and somewhat erratic. I have no idea what could cause that discrepancy. The fix likely involves focusing on the "cello" and trying to get its phrasing/articulation/rendition really self-consistent.

Of course this begs the question what the point is in mimicking other instruments' articulation in the first place. I find it a charming challenge on the acoustic instrument, and it will better serve the sounds you pick on the digital instrument. I actually am more intrigued by the acoustic performance, but of course we know that this need not be the case for the average audience.

Good work either way.

I do appreciate your very specific feedback. As you mentioned making changes at this stage is like rebuilding. That being said, for the amount of effort I put into this, I'll probably be playing this for a long time and if some piece deserves special attention, it's this one.

With respect to exactly imitating acoustic instruments, I'm a bit conflicted as to what the motive should be. On one side, if so much effort is put in to modify the sounds, then why not go all the way? On the other hand, a digital instrument in it's own right is it's own identity which can do different voices. This cross between a bellows powered keyed instrument, a flute and a cello can be it's own sound. A degree of imitation or similarity doesn't mean one needs to go all the way. A pan flute sounds completely different from a concert flute or a bamboo flute. Both in time and I'm style. Even the same instrument has different playing styles depending on what genre one is trying to play (the oompah vs long bases we previously discussed on the accordion). So I guess it's all up to interpretation.

With respect to the average audience, I didn't think they really care about anything. They'll be happy even if I'm using a backing track and playing only the melody. In the end, I'm my primary audience .


With respect to the ending, it is one of my two problem spots in the song. The first one is a double octave jump with syncopation on the left hand. I always miss that because my pinky is weak (I broke it by doing something stupid with a basketball when I was young). So I'm focusing on fixing that problem spot first. Then I'll have to get to the ending.

 

[Siegmund]

I think it's a mixed bag.

Re the balance, to my ear it was about 60% treble 40% bass in the acoustic version, and more like 80-20 on the Evo (can barely hear the cello side at all.) That well be an artifact of the recording or my headphones. And what is the "right" balance, when a piece that had between 5 and 8 voices depending how the basso continuo is realized, is reduced to only 2?
I would wish for more bass, and I miss the inner voices. I think it might actually work better as a Stradella piece, using the chord buttons to fill out the figured bass, and not worry about the octave leaps or simulate them by choosing between bass+chord or just chord. But I spent most my life playing in orchestras. I am guessing this is meant to follow a solo keyboard arrangement of the Badinerie and I only know the orchestra version.

Re the articulation: I think the flute sounds in the right hand worked very well. In the acoustic version the right hand felt mechanical, more marchlike than dancelike. The start and end of each note is helped by the flute sounds. Maybe this means your fingers move in a way that is more how a flutist's tongue moves (and maybe more like a pianist than an organist.) Maybe it is just an effect of the sound bank.

I didn't have an issue with the cello staccato, seeing as the basso continuo part is marked sempre staccato.

 

[breezybellows]

I think it's a mixed bag.

Re the balance, to my ear it was about 60% treble 40% bass in the acoustic version, and more like 80-20 on the Evo (can barely hear the cello side at all.) That well be an artifact of the recording or my headphones. And what is the "right" balance, when a piece that had between 5 and 8 voices depending how the basso continuo is realized, is reduced to only 2?
I would wish for more bass, and I miss the inner voices. I think it might actually work better as a Stradella piece, using the chord buttons to fill out the figured bass, and not worry about the octave leaps or simulate them by choosing between bass+chord or just chord. But I spent most my life playing in orchestras. I am guessing this is meant to follow a solo keyboard arrangement of the Badinerie and I only know the orchestra version.

Re the articulation: I think the flute sounds in the right hand worked very well. In the acoustic version the right hand felt mechanical, more marchlike than dancelike. The start and end of each note is helped by the flute sounds. Maybe this means your fingers move in a way that is more how a flutist's tongue moves (and maybe more like a pianist than an organist.) Maybe it is just an effect of the sound bank.

I didn't have an issue with the cello staccato, seeing as the basso continuo part is marked sempre staccato.

Reg the Cello balance I suspect it might be a headphone issue. Because I hear the acoustic is balanced about 30-70 (treble and bass) and the digital almost even.

I actually like the bass octave jumps. It's to bad that I didn't really hit it in the videos. If I hit it precisely and accent that note, I like how it sounds.

 

[debra]

I like the flute+cello interpretation. For me the length of the notes sounds just right. But it is a matter of taste.
I like better how this sounds than the acoustic version. Part of that is in the reverb which is missing completely in the acoustic accordion version. What also strikes me in the acoustic accordion version is that you hit the keys as if it were a piano. All you need to do on the accordion is to open the valve. Hitting the keys with more force has no effect. The dynamics comes entirely from the bellows.

 

[dak]

All you need to do on the accordion is to open the valve. Hitting the keys with more force has no effect. The dynamics comes entirely from the bellows.

To me, an accordion valve is not an open-or-shut case. How you open and particularly how you close a valve becomes part of the articulation. A piano will decay notes on its own, so if some piano score prescribes a half note in the bass followed by a quarter rest, the desired execution will have the note struck at the start and will have the note not interfering with attention or harmonic developments of the treble in the third quarter. If you translate this to accordion, you don't want to add a conspicuous thing like hacking off the bass note after two quarters. You want the note to fade inconspicuously. You actually want the same on a piano, but the default action of piano sound shape and dampers is already doing half the job for you. Not so on the accordion.

I am somewhat tempted to blame piano keys for suggesting too much here, but to be fair, you get the same keys on a harmonium where the phrasing is done with the keys (the harmonium bellows action is too slow to be employed at the detail level you can work an accordion bellows).

Also, try listening to Enrique Ugarte's rendition of Ravel's Boléro:


Particularly at the start, he intentionally hits his bass buttons with force in order to make percussive sounds. I like this kind of turning weaknesses into features.

 

[debra]

To me, an accordion valve is not an open-or-shut case. ...

For the right tone you have to really open the valve (otherwise you get tone bending), but it needs to be done such that you are not playing percussion on the keyboard. The keys make enough noise by themselves when you press them swiftly but gently that you don't need to hammer on them. Bass notes are different though: You press a button, which presses a lever which pulls on yet another lever to open the valve (pallet). The action is quite indirect, and there is no stopper involved. You can press the button as deep as you want (but your finger cannot go deep into the hole) and you never hit a stop.

 

[32251]

I enjoyed the flute sound. I really don’t mind the cello left hand either. I commend you on playing Bach, no matter how it sounds. Take under consideration that bachs music in his day was played on whatever was available and players were expected to bring their own playing styles into consideration. Portato or potato…..don’t be concerned with that…just keep playing Bach!!

 

[dak]

I enjoyed the flute sound. I really don’t mind the cello left hand either. I commend you on playing Bach, no matter how it sounds. Take under consideration that bachs music in his day was played on whatever was available and players were expected to bring their own playing styles into consideration. Portato or potato…..don’t be concerned with that…just keep playing Bach!!

When someone plays just the notes of "Michael row the boat ashore" (one note at a time, no accompaniment) without any deviation from the score, you are still able to hear the difference between someone playing an instrument for a year and someone playing an instrument for 10 years, like you can hear the difference between someone speaking simple sentences in a language they have learnt for a year and someone speaking the same words in a language they have been speaking for 10 years. In the latter case, more elements than the mere notes express are deliberate.

The notes provide a skeleton, but it is the player that gives the flesh to the performance. "Roland makes that instrument sound like a flute" is not a vindication of me playing it. "You make that instrument sound like a flute" is. And it is fun to do this in particular with the Badinerie since it registers as and is expected to be a flute piece. The acoustic instrument has the advantage of making it more apparent to the listener that you are contributing to the flutishness of the performance. Your accordion is speaking with the accent of a flute.

Here are two renditions of the prelude from the solo cello suite #1 from Bach, and I find that one rendition is doing a lot better with regard to speaking with a "cello accent" than the other even though both instruments are pretty good at providing a basic "cello tone" to build upon. Both renditions are definitely Bach, both renditions are definitely musical. But it is the "accent" that makes one version a lot more fun to me.

It's kind of like a drag performance. A good drag outfit and makeup is not to be sneezed at, but it is the act that makes it work.

 

[PhiliGol]

Finally of course it boils down to personal preference - but to me it's no question.
Bravo Paul

 

[32251]

wie gehts Dak. looked at the two versions you posted. first of all......its an accordion. it will never sound, look, or smell like a cello or a flute. therefore there is no reason to equate it in any way with a flute or a cello. yes the patch is a "flute" patch, but as far as sounding exactly and phrased exactly like a flute...no way. same with the cello patch. so for me, thats where it all stops in comparisons. the guy played the piece using an accordion.....the patches used on the accordion are a flute and a cello. when he plays, he is using the technique of the accordion, not an accordion player trying to sound like a flute player. this same scenario applies to keyboard synth players registering up flute and cello sounds and playing bach. i accept them as they are, not as i want them to be.

now to the links you posted. the guy outside....thats a track overdubed to a video, so i zoned in on the track and not the video. hmmmmm....its still an accordion playing a piece of music that was originally written for cello...how he plays it has nothing to do with me wanting him to sound or phrase like a cello, because he can never do that. i just accept what he does. in bachs time music was played on what was at hand. if played on the harpsichord it was accepted no matter what it was written for originally.

here is the same piece played on guitar. actually a resonator guitar...sort of like a fretted dobro. i recorded all the guitar parts. realized a bass part and herded all the string parts into an ensemble. i know about bachs music. anytime i hear someone playing it, i celebrate the work that goes into it.

Bach Delvecchio3

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

 

[breezybellows]

wie gehts Dak. looked at the two versions you posted. first of all......its an accordion. it will never sound, look, or smell like a cello or a flute. therefore there is no reason to equate it in any way with a flute or a cello. yes the patch is a "flute" patch, but as far as sounding exactly and phrased exactly like a flute...no way. same with the cello patch. so for me, thats where it all stops in comparisons. the guy played the piece using an accordion.....the patches used on the accordion are a flute and a cello. when he plays, he is using the technique of the accordion, not an accordion player trying to sound like a flute player. this same scenario applies to keyboard synth players registering up flute and cello sounds and playing bach. i accept them as they are, not as i want them to be.

now to the links you posted. the guy outside....thats a track overdubed to a video, so i zoned in on the track and not the video. hmmmmm....its still an accordion playing a piece of music that was originally written for cello...how he plays it has nothing to do with me wanting him to sound or phrase like a cello, because he can never do that. i just accept what he does. in bachs time music was played on what was at hand. if played on the harpsichord it was accepted no matter what it was written for originally.

here is the same piece played on guitar. actually a resonator guitar...sort of like a fretted dobro. i recorded all the guitar parts. realized a bass part and herded all the string parts into an ensemble. i know about bachs music. anytime i hear someone playing it, i celebrate the work that goes into it.

Bach Delvecchio3

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.

www.mediafire.com

That's very similar to the perspective I have. It's like a flavor of flute and cello. It doesn't have to be identical. If I look at my video, there are a ton of other things to improve wrt phrasing and dynamics that can make the performance better. It can be an accordion with a flute patch that sounds different from a flute and it can still be musical.

 

[dak]

It can be an accordion with a flute patch that sounds different from a flute and it can still be musical.

If you play a designated flute piece with a flute patch, the results will be viewed in comparison to a flute. That's kind of the point of that choice, isn't it?