Baile accordion thoughts?

[Stephen Hawkins]

Ouija,

I don't think that Fever accordions have made it to the UK, as the only information I could find on them was on American sites. Thanks for the heads-up, as to be fore-warned is to be fore-armed.

I have come across a few really dreadful Chinese boxes, but there are some good ones out there. Baile is an unknown quantity to me, so I am unable to comment about their quality. But, rather than write off all Chinese boxes, I prefer to remain open minded to possibilities.

My Chanson gets dragged around Folk Clubs and Pensioner's events in my region, and it continues to perform very well every time I pick it up. I accept that it is no Bugari or Excelsior, but it adequately meets my needs.

Cheers,

Stephen.

 

[george garside]

Ouija,

My Chanson gets dragged around Folk Clubs and Pensioners events in my region, and it continues to perform very well every time I pick it up. I accept that it is no Bugari or Excelsior, but it adequately meets my needs.

Cheers,

Stephen.

adequately meets my needs is a very good notion to keep in mind when considering buying a box! Whilst posh/expensive boxes may well be a nice thing to own just to show that you can afford one or perhaps because you cant but are hell bent on making others think you can your playing will not automatically improve! In fact it will not improve at all unless you put a great deal of effort into making it happen - but then why not put the same effort into improving your playing on a not posh box and perhaps then and only then consider a better quality one

For what its worth I haave a very expensive castagnari melodeon and it is the one I play least!!

george

 

[TomBR]

It's a common occurrence on music forums, established players are very scathing about "poor quality" instruments and ready to brand them unplayable.
When you have a nice instrument if you try out something more basic it may feel awful and you'd hate to play it. To a beginner, any instrument is unplayable!
Unfortunately online it's hard to distinguish between "so bad it'll discourage you and prevent you from making progress" and "not very nice but it'll do to get you started."

 

[debra]

Without being picky, when an instrument has notes that do not play (in at least one direction), that take a second or so to start, when keys don't work properly (sticky, or catching on each other), etc... an instrument may effectively be unplayable. But in all likelihood these problems will be fixable. When you get a cheap chinese box it may require a repairman to spend a few hours on it, and of course that also costs money, but it can turn an unplayable accordion into a usable one that a beginner can have a lot of fun with for at least a few years.
I mostly play on a very expensive bayan or button accordion, but I still have a small 40-bass Crucianelli that's about 50 years old, and that I have kept in usable condition through rewaxing, valve replacement and tuning and it can be very usable by a child to learn the basics, and I have still used it to play along with a song. It's not the price or the origin that counts. It matters that everything just functions.

 

[george garside]

for anybody with absolutely no experience of accordions ( of any type) the biggest risk , particularly with cheaper new or any used box is buying unseen wither from a dealer or individual via mail order or ebay etc.

My advice, particularly but not exclusively with Chinese boxes is to go to a dealer with several of the one you fancy in stock and try them all, choosing the one that sounds best. No need to be able to play one just press every key and button in turn whilst both pulling and pushing the bellwos to chack thatevery note responds in the same way, if fitted with couplers repeat the exercise on the best one using each coupler setting. Also fully extend the bellows and then with neither key nor air button pressed try closing the bellows which should hardly if anything move towards closed.

An even better way is to take along an experienced accordion playing friend !

george

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

George, Tom & Paul,

You never know, we may be heading toward a consensus here.

It is all well and good to own nice instruments, but it pays to remember that basic models may better suit certain genres of music better than some expensive ones. It would also be fair to say that most folk venues welcome any instrument, irrespective of its retail cost, and are much more concerned about the player fitting in to that community.

I have no idea of the percentage of our members who own or play Chinese instruments (or very cheap second hand ones) but I sometimes flinch when I read entirely unnecessary disparaging remarks, written by people who have abjectly failed to comprehend the needs and circumstances of those who have bought them.

Some time ago, I read a comment about Chinese instruments, which suggested that the sawdust should be shaken out of the box prior to playing. How insulting and insensitive would that seem to the owner of a Chinese instrument? That comment didn't bother me at all, as it said more about the author than it did about the subject. One or two people seem oblivious to the fact that they are trampling on the feelings of others, but I think I have said enough on that subject.

We can't all own top instruments or be terrific players, but we can all have fun with our chosen instruments. (Chinese or otherwise)

 

[Soulsaver]

George, Tom & Paul,

Some time ago, I read a comment about Chinese instruments, which suggested that the sawdust should be shaken out of the box prior to playing. How insulting and insensitive would that seem to the owner of a Chinese instrument? That comment didnt bother me at all, as it said more about the author than it did about the subject. One or two people seem oblivious to the fact that they are trampling on the feelings of others, but I think I have said enough on that subject.

Well there have been several reports on here of sawdust in Chinese manufactured accordions. Some were the experience of respected dealers & professional repairers. And some more were from owners.

Id say what it says about them is that they find sawdust in some Chinese made boxes... potentially or actually interfering with playability.

What is it you think it says?

 

[OuijaBoard]

[[[it pays to remember that basic models may better suit certain genres of music better than some expensive ones.]]] Couldn't agree more, but the "basic model" in question needs to be playable. Actually, it needs to be very playable. I'm all for buying cheap stuff and fixing it up, but if you can't do that yourself, you have to sit there with the balance sheet and do the old cost/balance analysis as to buying something with playability issues and spending money to have someone work on it, versus saving up for the next level of "basic model" that IS playable. And that analysis is gonna shake out differently for different players.

There is a difference between categorical, across-the-board disdain for an entire manufacturing region. Versus input about observed issues and deficiencies. The accordion I tried was not playable, and at a price tag of $600 IMHO it was not worth fixing up, nor would my accordion tech think it was worth fixing up. I know exactly what he would say, which is that putting $600 into it would be like throwing your money out onto the street. Now, as previously mentioned, when the proprietor saw me put it back on the shelf, he immediately offered to me for $300. Would THAT be worth buying and fixing up? Who knows, and I don't have to find out. My practice box is a very responsive, fast, sweet-sounding Asian-made CBA that cost several times $300, but half (or less than half) the price of even the cheapest equivalent "basic model" Italian-made box with durall reeds in it. So there you have it.

 

[Howie]

I recently bought a Chinese made accordion - I'm a beginner, and so far, I think it's 'adequate'. It was recommended to me by the dealer as a learner instrument.

My wife wouldn't allow me to spend more (although we could afford it), and the dealer, who also sells high end accordions, felt that it would be enough to learn with. My initial caution was balanced by him offering a buy-back price at 6 months. So if I don't continue with accordion playing, I haven't lost too much in trying it out.

I think I will keep playing though, so I'll be trading up.

Interestingly, I was saying to the dealer that I would prefer more bass buttons (it's a 72) and more registers. He said, you don't need more buttons, you don't need more registers. Now, actually getting my hands on it, I see he's right. It's enough to keep me busy for a while yet.

I took the path of learning with a chinese instrument before, when I started playing Tenor sax. That instrument was fine for a learner, but when I traded up to a "pro" level sax, the thing that struck me was how much easier it was to play. Of course a better instrument can't necessarily make for instant better musician, but it made playing a lot more pleasant.

For now the accordion I have is what it is, but I'm having a lot of fun. I'm reading and browsing as much as I can about brands, prices... and saving hard to be able to afford an upgrade in a few months time.

 

[Matt Butcher]

The sawdust joke, if I remember rightly, was Bill "Goldtopia" Orrell's, following reports of actual sawdust found inside instruments. (A mate of mine had the same experience, not to say you could necessarily extrapolate from this to all instruments.) To judge by his posts Bill was a player of popular songs, a social club player (among other things) and had a down to earth and humorous approach to music. He also made jokes about big accordions and Rolands. My favourite comment of his was that he had never knowingly played a diminished chord, but if he had, his audience hadn't noticed. We can't ask him to comment, as he died last year.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Ouija,

Your dealer did you a real favour by steering you away from bigger boxes, as trying to play a larger instrument may have put you off.

I started with a 12 Bass, practicing with that instrument (a Galotta) until I hit the limit of its ability. Then I moved on to a 72 Bass Chanson, which seems to have all the notes I need.

It has not happened yet but, when/if I hit the buffers with the 72 Bass, I may consider a 120. I have recently been offered an Italian 120 Bass, but have yet to see the instrument. This instrument may not actually be Italian, as the vendor was not sure at the time she made the offer. I await developments.

Enjoy your instrument.

Stephen.

 

[wout]

Hello! For me the number of bassbuttons don't really matter that much. I think you should look at whats your capability of your right hand since the bassbuttons after 72 just repeat themselves. Also what was very important to me was the number of voices, thats the real emphasis of the sound in an accordion

 

[OuijaBoard]

]]]Ouija, Your dealer did you a real favour by steering you away from bigger boxes,[[[

That wasn't yours truly. It was another poster on this thread. I learned PA before going to CBA, so have played with 120 basses. But I do hate big boxes, except when other people play them. I don't like the 120 bass layout. My favorite bass config is 72, 60 a close second, and will consider 96 or even 48 so long as the 48 is a 12X4 so as to have all scale tones. And love a smaller treble complement so long as it is a minimum of 30 tones.

 

[debra]

... I learned PA before going to CBA, so have played with 120 basses. But I do hate big boxes, except when other people play them.

CBA gives you much more than PA in a small package. I was just looking at a Borsini Concerto Mini which is 39 × 21.5 × 37 cm, supposedly 10,5kg (but they all lie) and it is 3 voice, cassotto, convertor, 52 notes!!! and I have a Bugari 540/ARS/C which is 4 voice, cassotto, convertor, 52 notes, 41 x 22.3 43.5 cm and supposedly 12,4kg (but I know that is not true). These are all 120 bass and especially on that Borsini the 120 only barely fit that small size. You can also get 96 bass instruments that have 46 notes (one more than a Morino VI or many other huge PAs).
My wife and I switched from PA to CBA mainly for the smaller size. My Bayan is 46 x 23 x 46 cm and supposedly 13,9 kg (but again that is not true). You get 64 notes in that small size.

For a beginner who wants small and light, CBA is definitely the way to go. For an experiences PA player it is not (takes many years of practice).

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Ouija,

I do beg your pardon. Please put my conflation down to advanced years. My mind isn't always the steel trap it once was.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.

 

[OuijaBoard]

]]]For a beginner who wants small and light, CBA is definitely the way to go. For an experiences PA player it is not (takes many years of practice).

I think mileage may vary on this one. I switched from PA to CBA with happy results, and know of others who've done the same. But I play other button systems and get a kick out of learning them, have actually learned another one since taking on CBA. What I will say I did do when learning CBA was, spent quite a long time playing right-hand only and getting that deep into the neural pathways before starting to put it together with the basses I already knew from PA. A long time.

 

[george garside]

]]]For a beginner who wants small and light, CBA is definitely the way to go. For an experiences PA player it is not (takes many years of practice).

A. What I will say I did do when learning CBA was, spent quite a long time playing right-hand only and getting that deep into the neural pathways before starting to put it together with the basses I already knew from PA. A long time.

that is exactly what I have always suggested to piano box players taking up the continental. Learning one thing at a time is far more sensible and the left hand skills wont have gone away when the time comes to re use them. In fact this happens more or less without conscious thought when the student starts to properly get the hang of the button treble end

george