Bass reed block question

[mister0blivion]

Hi, I’m pretty new to the accordion. I bought one at a thrift store (120 bass) and I’ve been fixing it up.
My next task is to replace some of the reeds on the bass reed blocks. Playing through each reed individually, I’ve noticed that on the lower reed block, everything is in chromatically ascending order within the same octave (A1, A#1, B1, etc) but on the higher reed block, the reeds aren’t really consistent in terms of octave.

For example, the higher reed block goes A#3, B3, then it jumps up to C5, then back down to C#4. It’s like that in a few spots.

This seems wrong to me, like someone really messed up on repairing it, but this is my first accordion so I’m not that confident about it.

So my question is, should all of the reed blocks be arranged in chromatic order within each octave? And if not, would anyone be so kind as to post a diagram or something of how the reeds are supposed to be arranged?

Thanks in advance!

 

[debra]

It is normal for the octave jump to be different because this helps to hide the jump when multiple reed banks play together.
However, every reed bank should have a lowest note and then go up chromatically from there, so A#3, B3 and then C5 makes no sense. It should really be something like A#3, B3, C4, C#4, up to wherever it jumps down.
Italian accordions typically have at least one point where the jump changes, like the third reed bank and then the next ones as well, or sometimes two jump changes, like the third reed bank differs and then the fourth and fifth differ once more.
A German Hohner however typically has the octave jump in the same spot on all reed banks, which then makes it very obvious where the octave jump is.

 

[mister0blivion]

Thanks, that’s really helpful!

Just to clarify, does that mean that it would make sense, for example, for one block to go A3, Bb3, C4, C#4, then jump down to D3, Eb3, etc?

And if so, would it also follow that the other side of the reed block (which at least on mine, doubles everything at the octave), would do the opposite and go A2, Bb2, B2, C3, C#3, and then jump up to D4, Eb4, etc?

That’s what mine does, which seems wrong to me but like I said, I’m brand new to this so I really have no idea.

Thanks again

 

[debra]

Thanks, that’s really helpful!

Just to clarify, does that mean that it would make sense, for example, for one block to go A3, Bb3, C4, C#4, then jump down to D3, Eb3, etc?

And if so, would it also follow that the other side of the reed block (which at least on mine, doubles everything at the octave), would do the opposite and go A2, Bb2, B2, C3, C#3, and then jump up to D4, Eb4, etc?

That’s what mine does, which seems wrong to me but like I said, I’m brand new to this so I really have no idea.

Thanks again

Every reed bank (one side of a reed block) needs to cover one octave, but may have the lowest note somewhere else.
So one side of the block should never have reeds that are more than an octave apart. A reed of B2, C3, ... does not belong in the same set as D4, Eb4, etc.

 

[mister0blivion]

Thank you, again, very helpful.

Last question (I think) and then I’ll try to leave you alone for a while.

I have two reed blocks in the bass - one for single bass notes, one for the chords. If the bass note one goes straight up from A to G# with no jump, where would you recommend putting the jump in the chord block (which also goes from A up to G#)?

 

[debra]

Thank you, again, very helpful.

Last question (I think) and then I’ll try to leave you alone for a while.

I have two reed blocks in the bass - one for single bass notes, one for the chords. If the bass note one goes straight up from A to G# with no jump, where would you recommend putting the jump in the chord block (which also goes from A up to G#)?

If all the blocks are going straight up from A to G# then I don't understand your original message.
If you have two bass blocks then you have a 4 voice bass. it then either has all blocks the same (the "German way") or it has a different setup on the first block (both sides the same but one octave difference) and the second block (both sides again the same but one octave difference). The jump is typically a few notes away, so if the first block starts at A tnen the second one can start anywhere between C and E.
However, if all the blocks go from A to G# then I suggest to just leave it.
But if I can make any sense of your first message then someone has at some point replaced some reeds. It's best to put reeds with the original frequency back.

 

[mister0blivion]

Haha, yeah, I’m having a hard time even coming up with the right questions since I’m so new at this.

From what you’re saying though, it seems like you have a solid understanding of my situation, however confusingly I may have worded it.

I agree that it seems like someone moved some reeds around at some point but since this is all new to me, I couldn’t be sure.

Thank you so much for all of your advice! Looking forward to getting started!

 

[John Doe]

All the bass blocks will have the notes in exactly the same order, whatever order that is. The blocks' sets will be in different octaves, but the same sequence.

For the RH blocks a four block instrument will have the same note order for all the reeds on the top two blocks, and the same for the bottom two blocks. That's both top and bottom reeds on each block; all four in a pair of the top two or a pair of the bottom two will be the same note though in different octaves.

The top two blocks will pretty much always not match the sequence in the bottom two blocks.

That sequence will frequently not be a straight chromatic scale though it wll go from low to high (or vice versa depending on how you look at it!).

For a two block both sides of each block will match sequence.

On most three block accordions both sides of the top block and the top half of the middle block match sequence and the bottom block and the bottom half of the middle block match.

For a Chromatic Button Accordion the sequence may be a bit wild and there are schemes out there with six blocks. You might not want to start on one of these since it's the same logically- but a bit bewildering until you step back and contemplate it with the benefit of a bit of experience.

Good luck- and don't take anything apart without noting where the stuff was to start with so you and backtrack if needed.

 

[petch]

For a Chromatic Button Accordion the sequence may be a bit wild and there are schemes out there with six blocks. You might not want to start on one of these since it's the same logically- but a bit bewildering until you step back and contemplate it with the benefit of a bit of experience.

You can always just press a button/key (C3 for example) and see which hole is opening once the reed block is off - this is how I quickly worked out which reed in my free bass was acting up

 

[John Doe]

You can always just press a button/key (C3 for example) and see which hole is opening once the reed block is off - this is how I quickly worked out which reed in my free bass was acting up

Absolutely the most direct method. Close and open registers and you 'll know exactly which reed is irritating you by observing which ports are open/closed.

Sorry about the seeming approval on my own post- "Old dog new tricks..." "So simple a four year old child could do it" Regrettably there's no four year old at this end and it's baffling to me. I have no idea what went wrong but I was aiming at Petch's common sense "Just press a button" post!

 

[Johnno]

I have a Paolo Soprani with 120 base buttons that has one bank of reeds in one block that have fallen out. On the intact side there are no spaces but on the other side there is one less reed than the number of spaces. Does this make sense as aren’t the 2 reeds opposite played individually when there is a push or a pull ? Can I use the other intact side as a quick way to work out the placement as it should be the same note ? The block in question is the one furtherest from the button side

 

[boxplayer4000]

Johnno: If there's 12 reeds on one side there should be 12 on the other. Double check with bass reed blocks removed; press bass buttons until the pallet under the 'missing' space opens and draw conclusions then.

 

[Johnno]

Hi boxplayer4000, thanks for your quick reply. I did just that and went through the 120 buttons and mapped them on a grid with the 12 slots and you’re right every slot opened several times. Strangely therefore I am missing one reed.
So now I need to work out what reed goes where and get another reed. I think I could put them in any slots temporarilly and use the belllows and a tuning app to test the pitches and then rearrange and wax them in. I will need to get a new reed to match the missing one and tune it. Any ideas where I could purchase one ?

 

[boxplayer4000]

Johnno: I'm glad you're making progress. I expect you've had a good look around for the missing reed already? Have you looked in the folds of the bellows? I could get a replacement reed by simply walking to my garage. However since you're in Melbourne that's not much help. Bass reeds are probably easier to replace than treble ones. You need to identify the pitch of the reed and knowing length of the reed body will be helpful too. There's a few high profile Australian contributors on this site I'm sure will help you find a reed.
Good Luck

 

[Johnno]

Thanks again Boxplayet4000 as you were spot on! I did look thoroughly for the missing reed, taking out all the treble reed blocks as well as the other base blocks. I had also looked briefly at the bellows but it was only when I extended it virtually all the way that the missing reed just popped out which I wouldn’t have done if not for your suggestion. So yes definately making progress with your help. I need to order the wax and might also replace valves and the metal strips on top as quite a few valves are missing or curled up. I think the Italian or German wax is preferred,

 

[Ffingers]

Johnno: I'm glad you're making progress. I expect you've had a good look around for the missing reed already? Have you looked in the folds of the bellows? I could get a replacement reed by simply walking to my garage. However since you're in Melbourne that's not much help. Bass reeds are probably easier to replace than treble ones. You need to identify the pitch of the reed and knowing length of the reed body will be helpful too. There's a few high profile Australian contributors on this site I'm sure will help you find a reed.
Good Luck

I have a defunct Scandalli with all its reeds which might be useful, Johnno.
Drop me a PM if you find that you need any.

 

[Johnno]

I have a defunct Scandalli with all its reeds which might be useful, Johnno.
Drop me a PM if you find that you need any.

Thanks Ffingers for the kind offer. I am hoping I’m ok now that I found the last reed hiding in the bellows, who would have thought ! Will see how intact they are once they are back in their correct positions !

 

[Johnno]

Thanks Ffingers for the kind offer. I am hoping I’m ok now that I found the last reed hiding in the bellows, who would have thought ! Will see how intact they are once they are back in their correct positions !

Hi Ffingers,
Whilst cleaning and checking behind the reed blocks I found a broken piece of metal off a reed. I checked all the outside reeds and they were intact. Then I checked the inside of the reeds and discovered 3 broken or missing metal pieces. They are all from the middle reed block of the base, and if counting from the larger end they are numbered 4, 7 and 9. Do you still have the old Scamdali ? If not I can try to get them from CGM.

Thanks,

 

[dak]

A German Hohner however typically has the octave jump in the same spot on all reed banks, which then makes it very obvious where the octave jump is.

Interestingly, I just tested this on a Hohner Artiste VID (5-reed standard bass starting at E1, E2, E3, E4, E5) and it is surprisingly unobvious in the master register where the octave jump is. When I put my free bass Morino into a mode with notes starting at E1, E2, E3, E4, the jump is more apparent. In either case, less full registrations make the jump more obvious.

So while on paper, the Italian manner of different reed bank starts for masking octave jumps sounds convincing, I am not sure the payoff is as large as one would think, at least regarding instruments designed for standard bass use with constant reed size across each reed group. But even converter instruments tend to have a dedicated reed block for the bass octave (and its higher octave companion reeds) where all reeds and reed chambers are of the same size. And I think this may help with limiting the impact of the wraparound.

 

[Ffingers]

Hi Ffingers,
Whilst cleaning and checking behind the reed blocks I found a broken piece of metal off a reed. I checked all the outside reeds and they were intact. Then I checked the inside of the reeds and discovered 3 broken or missing metal pieces. They are all from the middle reed block of the base, and if counting from the larger end they are numbered 4, 7 and 9. Do you still have the old Scamdali ? If not I can try to get them from CGM.

Thanks,

Drop me a PM

PS it's 40˚C in the waterbag today and only about 10˚ cooler in the house so please be patient!