bass reed blocks / voices

[smdc66]

can someone help me determine how you work out how many bass voices there are from number of reed blocks

i have been looking inside an old pancotti 1930's accordion which is 48 bass and apparently unusual to have 3 reed blocks

there is no couplers :!:

it must be easy to work out how many voices from the number reed blocks :? but not for me, or have i answered my own question :?:

i have a similar question brewing about treble reed blocks / couplers but cant think of a way to word it properly at the moment

 

[Soulsaver]

On the bass side 12 visible 'reeds' needed to make all the notes and chords. So usually there are 12 on each side of a block except on a 3rd block there's usually only one - if it conforms to that it would be 5 voices.

 

[Soulsaver]

Yep - just looked at your pics on the Pancotti post and there does indeed seem to be 5 voices.

 

[smdc66]

thanks, think i'm starting to get it now.

each set of visible 12 reeds = 1 voice, so in my case 5 sets of reeds = 5 voices {} - i knew there was a simplistic answer

so would one know, whats the variables :?:

eg minimum = 1 set of reeds = 1 voice, and max = well, more than 5 and if there are no couplers does more voices basically make it louder

 

[Soulsaver]

Richer for sure - marginally louder than 4 in the same box, I guess - but there are other contributing factors.
I have modern accordions with only 4 voices on the bass side. Usually there are 4 or 5 and seen only a couple with 6 - so 6 may be fairly rare.

 

[Soulsaver]

They do make this stuff confusing for the uninitiated - logically you'd think 5 voices would mean capable of 5 variations but it doesn't.
5 sets of reeds are capable of producing many more combinations than 5 - but you'd need plenty of couplers to facilitate.
You often see ebay listers saying '5 voice' when there are 5 couplers on the treble side.

 

[Glenn]

Many ebay-listers have no idea what they are writing about.
5 voices have theoretically so many combinations as to be ridiculous, thus frequently a set of 3 or 5 or 7 combinations are chosen via couplers.
It's odd that you have a 5 voice bass with not a single coupler.

 

[smdc66]

Its odd that you have a 5 voice bass with not a single coupler.

maybe not - were in 1930 remember :!:

 

[Soulsaver]

thanks, think im starting to get it now.

so would one know, whats the variables :?:

Well... skill of the player ,size & quality of the reeds, resonance of the bass enclosure, holes for the sound to come out from, materials of the case/reed blocks, efficency of the bellows, efficencey of valves, pressure applied to the bellows, the environment in which its played, the accoustics of the room, proximity of the listener(s), humidity , weather, hearing aid volume..... eh?

 

[Soulsaver]

Many ebay-listers have no idea what they are writing about.
5 voices have theoretically so many combinations as to be ridiculous, thus frequently a set of 3 or 5 or 7 combinations are chosen via couplers.
Its odd that you have a 5 voice bass with not a single coupler.

Yes, 5 reed sets have 31 possible combinations...

 

[smdc66]

would the cheaper boxes have less bass reed block sets then - 6 is a lot / rare , is there a minimum in practice?

 

[JIM D.]

80% of accordions made in the 20's and 30's from the US, Germany and Italy contained 4 and 5 sets of bass reeds and did not have shift or coupler machines. The reasoning for this is that an accordionist of this period needed all bass reeds sounding while playing solo for volume as there was no amplification for musical instruments in this time period. And when an accordionist worked with an orchestra he only played the treble side as all orchestras of this period had a Bass player and pianos and guitars for chords. Shifts for the bass side started to be popular in the early 40's. There are many models of accordions made today with only 4 sets of bass reeds as there are very many accordionists that simply don't use or care for the high 5th set. JIM D.

 

[Soulsaver]

would the cheaper boxes have less bass reed block sets then - 6 is a lot / rare , is there a minimum in practice?

Well stating the obvious none is the minmum. Some accordions are made with none, used in bands with a rhythm section.

I think you could possibly get away with 2 - because at least one of mine allows you to select just 2.

Theres not that many that show the reed combos on bass couplers so you may not know. I also have a modern wet musette tuned Guerrini that has 5 sets bass reeds but only 2 bass couplers - so youve only got one less in effect..