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Bugari in cold temperatures
- Thread starter SSVK
- Start date
Attempting to play in such cold temperature is unlikely to really harm the accordion. But some reeds may refuse to play when they get really cold.
The expansion coefficient of aluminium is about twice that of steel. So as it gets colder the aluminium reed plate shrinks twice as much as the steel reed. As a consequence at some point the steed reed can no longer go through the hole in the reed plate. The better the reeds the tighter the fit and thus the sooner the reeds will stop working as it gets colder.
The Bugari Superfisa has tipo-a-mano reeds which are pretty good, with a tight fit. So it is more likely that the reeds will stop working than if you intended to use something like a Hohner Verdi with machine reeds that leave more room around the reed tongue.
The expansion coefficient of aluminium is about twice that of steel. So as it gets colder the aluminium reed plate shrinks twice as much as the steel reed. As a consequence at some point the steed reed can no longer go through the hole in the reed plate. The better the reeds the tighter the fit and thus the sooner the reeds will stop working as it gets colder.
The Bugari Superfisa has tipo-a-mano reeds which are pretty good, with a tight fit. So it is more likely that the reeds will stop working than if you intended to use something like a Hohner Verdi with machine reeds that leave more room around the reed tongue.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
you must also consider the steel will be ice cold when you stop,
the air left in the bellows can be humid
the humidity can and will condense, wet the steel, and cause rust
immediately after playing in such conditions i would air
mine out at room temperature until there was no danger..
sometimes that meant popping the pins and separating the halves
if i had to let it sit
i kept an inexpensive but good accordion for such gigs
(an accordiana) or you can try and find a soviet-era
legally imported Scandalli as some were ordered with
stainless steel reeds and one might still be found in the old
eastern block areas
and Paul, will the Super likely have plastic or leather reed-valves ?
will moistened plastic valves possibly be stuck the next day if they have a
moisture layer between them and the reedplate ?
the air left in the bellows can be humid
the humidity can and will condense, wet the steel, and cause rust
immediately after playing in such conditions i would air
mine out at room temperature until there was no danger..
sometimes that meant popping the pins and separating the halves
if i had to let it sit
i kept an inexpensive but good accordion for such gigs
(an accordiana) or you can try and find a soviet-era
legally imported Scandalli as some were ordered with
stainless steel reeds and one might still be found in the old
eastern block areas
and Paul, will the Super likely have plastic or leather reed-valves ?
will moistened plastic valves possibly be stuck the next day if they have a
moisture layer between them and the reedplate ?
I've got Delicia Lignatone but unfortunately it's broken and I dont have enough tíme to fix it until this performance. I can borrow old weltmeister from a friend but it's really uncomfortable for playing, that's why I'm asking about Bugari.
matagamasi
Member
Regarding condensation: Condensation will occur when warm air with moisture (water vapour) in it is reduced in temperature until it reaches the "dew point" which is the temperature at which the relative humidity is 100%. Condensation occurs when you cool air down, not when you warm air up. When you warm air up, its relative humidity decreases.
Playing an accordion outside in cold air should not create condensation as long as the accordion isn't colder than the air. When you first go outside the accordion will be at room temperature and cool down from there until it reaches the outdoor air temperature, so that will not create condensation (assuming the warm moist air from your breath isn't getting into the accordion). The warm accordion will heat up the cold air a bit which will lower the air's relative humidity. The final "steady state" temperature of the accordion might be slightly warmer than the outside air if some of your body heat from your hands and what leaks through your coat gets into the accordion, which is a good thing in terms of preventing condensation.
I think the time to worry about condensation is when you stop playing and go inside to the nice warm moist indoor air. You don't want any of that indoor air to get inside the accordion, or on the outside of it, because the moisture in the air will condense on the cold accordion parts (assuming they are below the dew point of the indoor air). Definitely don't play it when you get it inside until after it warms up internally, not just externally.
To be safe, I would put the accordion in a big plastic bag (like a garbage bag) when it is outside and seal it tight while it is outside. You could suck the extra air out of the bag with a plastic pipe by squeezing the top of the bag around it, but I don't think that is necessary. The relative humidity of the outside air in the bag will quickly drop when it warms up after you take it inside. The hygrometric chart (below) shows that air at 0 degC and 100% relative humidity (extreme case) will be about 30% relative humidity at 20 degC.
I would leave the accordion in the sealed bag until it has warmed up to room temperature, which could take several hours (just guessing). Even if you don't put it in a bag, the cold air inside the bellows which is where the reeds are shouldn't be a problem as long as the bellows and pallets don't leak air. The cold air will not cause condensation as its temperature increases and its relative humidity drops. Note that the inner and outer workings of the bass mechanism and treble keyboard will likely get covered in condensation if you don't bag the accordion outside.
Personally, I would not play any accordion that I cared a lot about outside in cold weather. I would worry about the reeds "choking" and scraping against the aluminum reed plates as mentioned by Paul. Also, plastic likes to crack when it gets cold, etc. As they say about whitewater canoeing, "I don't need to know where all the rocks are, I just need to know where they aren't." Accordions are best kept at temperatures that we are comfortable at without special clothing.
Playing an accordion outside in cold air should not create condensation as long as the accordion isn't colder than the air. When you first go outside the accordion will be at room temperature and cool down from there until it reaches the outdoor air temperature, so that will not create condensation (assuming the warm moist air from your breath isn't getting into the accordion). The warm accordion will heat up the cold air a bit which will lower the air's relative humidity. The final "steady state" temperature of the accordion might be slightly warmer than the outside air if some of your body heat from your hands and what leaks through your coat gets into the accordion, which is a good thing in terms of preventing condensation.
I think the time to worry about condensation is when you stop playing and go inside to the nice warm moist indoor air. You don't want any of that indoor air to get inside the accordion, or on the outside of it, because the moisture in the air will condense on the cold accordion parts (assuming they are below the dew point of the indoor air). Definitely don't play it when you get it inside until after it warms up internally, not just externally.
To be safe, I would put the accordion in a big plastic bag (like a garbage bag) when it is outside and seal it tight while it is outside. You could suck the extra air out of the bag with a plastic pipe by squeezing the top of the bag around it, but I don't think that is necessary. The relative humidity of the outside air in the bag will quickly drop when it warms up after you take it inside. The hygrometric chart (below) shows that air at 0 degC and 100% relative humidity (extreme case) will be about 30% relative humidity at 20 degC.
I would leave the accordion in the sealed bag until it has warmed up to room temperature, which could take several hours (just guessing). Even if you don't put it in a bag, the cold air inside the bellows which is where the reeds are shouldn't be a problem as long as the bellows and pallets don't leak air. The cold air will not cause condensation as its temperature increases and its relative humidity drops. Note that the inner and outer workings of the bass mechanism and treble keyboard will likely get covered in condensation if you don't bag the accordion outside.
Personally, I would not play any accordion that I cared a lot about outside in cold weather. I would worry about the reeds "choking" and scraping against the aluminum reed plates as mentioned by Paul. Also, plastic likes to crack when it gets cold, etc. As they say about whitewater canoeing, "I don't need to know where all the rocks are, I just need to know where they aren't." Accordions are best kept at temperatures that we are comfortable at without special clothing.
Last edited:
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Ventura
Been here for ages!
whatever the relative humidity is, actual moisture content is not zero
the air in the accordion and the metal of the reeds
will not warm up at the same rate
oftentimes, after the outside part of the xmas gig, we
then have to play inside too where warm relatively moist
air will hit those cold steel reeds
and there have been conditions where the reality of the
situation included ice buildup on the tips of the reeds..
( i popped the bellows because so many reeds had got stuck )
i have played outside when the actual relative humidity was
simply fully saturated air and mist turning into crystals on
my eyelashes.. imagine what the reeds felt ?
so science is great, but my practical experience calls for
erring on the side of "warm them reeds back up quick"
the air in the accordion and the metal of the reeds
will not warm up at the same rate
oftentimes, after the outside part of the xmas gig, we
then have to play inside too where warm relatively moist
air will hit those cold steel reeds
and there have been conditions where the reality of the
situation included ice buildup on the tips of the reeds..
( i popped the bellows because so many reeds had got stuck )
i have played outside when the actual relative humidity was
simply fully saturated air and mist turning into crystals on
my eyelashes.. imagine what the reeds felt ?
so science is great, but my practical experience calls for
erring on the side of "warm them reeds back up quick"
matagamasi
Member
Yes, playing in fog or mist where there is an aerosol of tiny water droplets or ice crystals suspended in the air is a totally different kettle of fish compared to water vapour that is "dissolved" in the air. Everything exposed to the air will get wet or covered in ice no matter what temperature it is (within reason).
isorry123
Member
I will weigh in… I played a cheap Hohner in ~freezing temperatures for about an hour and broke a bass rod …
If I were to do it again, I would drape a blanket or jacket over the accordion while I play. It makes it impossible to see the keys but you wouldn’t be cheating and looking at them anyways right ? Haha it will also keep your hands warmer
If I were to do it again, I would drape a blanket or jacket over the accordion while I play. It makes it impossible to see the keys but you wouldn’t be cheating and looking at them anyways right ? Haha it will also keep your hands warmer
murathan
Was a Bassoonist
Show must go on... You will try and see 
The Superfisa will have plastic valves for everything higher than something like C4.
Your advice about airing out the accordion when going back inside is good advice.
Ideally you should play clusters to make sure the warmer air in the room can heat up all the reeds.
(So letting warm air in just using the air button isn't good enough.)
boxplayer4000
Prolific poster
My tuppence worth is that accordions were not designed or constructed to be played in such low temperatures.
My suggestion to SSVK is either borrow a less expensive accordion or use a purely electronic one ( eg. Roland)
My suggestion to SSVK is either borrow a less expensive accordion or use a purely electronic one ( eg. Roland)
Or the air is saturated. At temperatures around 0°C, it may well be dewy/misty, and then the humidity just dumps on any surface the air passes. Clear and sunny would be preferable at those temperatures.
Hi ssvk , in a word I do not think it is a good idea .....................I would not even consider playing out side in those temperatures you are risking two very good accordions .......Why !!!.... damage will be at your expense !!! CRAZY just my opinion!!
My prediction… the OP will play outside, things will likely work well, and the incurred damage will not be immediately evident. A decade or so later, the OP will speak to the fruits of the damage and say “well, that was not a smart thing to do as it cost me $X to repair my accordion…”.
Like the commercial says… “you can pay me now, or you can pay me later”.
I would not ever take my cheapest lowliest accordion out and use it in such circumstances, the thought of the risk alone makes me cringe.
Like the commercial says… “you can pay me now, or you can pay me later”.
I would not ever take my cheapest lowliest accordion out and use it in such circumstances, the thought of the risk alone makes me cringe.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
that's why i have that LMMH Accordiana/excelsiorI would not ever take my cheapest lowliest accordion out and use it in such circumstances, the thought of the risk alone makes me cringe.
it was a basket case, worn out, leaky bellows, dented, the living crap
beat out of it, but like all Excelsior products it was so well built
that it came back up off of Life-Support to be a damn nice playing
sweet sounding and totally reliable box
sharp looking too.. cream colored, that big oval voluptuous grille..
unique accents and neat little etchings that revealed the silvery
aluminum under the keyboard frame
i made it my outdoor box.. inclement weather all season no fear..
i even had a gig on a rowboat once (i wore a Life Jacket, but if
the boat had tipped that box would have been sleeping with the Fishes)
this was the one i saw the ice on the tips of the reeds
that i played for Christmas caroling every year at the
Tree Lighting ceremony here in town
this was the one i played outside the Pentagon under the
big tree that rainy Sunday after 9/11 when the girls were filling
my Van with whatever they could salvage from their office
for me to take to the Hoffman bldg. so they could be set-up
ready to work in temp. quarters that Monday
it really should have new bellows.. i still play it now and then..
this box is living proof that an Accordiana is never a bad investment
for someone on a budget that can do a little fixing up when needed..
oh, it is still in tune too after all these many decades.. gotta be a
solid 60 years old.. i only ever spot tuned a few reeds.. no rust..
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