Cassotto voices options & tone

[tcabot]

Hi All.

Hoping that some of you can share your experiences listening to various high end accordion models and your views on the tone they produce (cheekily looking in @debra direction ) . Unfortunately I am not in a position to listen to a large number of various boxes live, and recordings never reveal the true tone anyway, so youtube is not of much help here. Reading & writing about tone is almost as hopeless as listening to recordings, but, ironically, might paint a better picture. Apologies if there was a thread like this before - I could not find it for some reason, albeit, I imagine this would be a hot topic far many.

In particular, I am interested in what voices go into cassotto and how that affects the tone. I am aware that there's more to the tone, including reed shapes, steel, cassotto chamber design, depth of each reed block inside the chamber, etc etc etc, but I hope that it's possible to come up with at least some generalisations.

For 3 voice LMH models the choice seems to be to put [L] in cassotto, and tune M and H dry. The general feedback seems to be that this provides a smooth bassoon register + nice sounding combination of [L]+H.

For 4 voice models, the modern concert bayan way seems to be [LM] in cassotto with dry-tuned MH outside. How does [LM] compare to [L]M? And is [M]M noticeably different/better than MM?

Another option that was used in the past on 5 voice instruments is to put [L+H] in cassotto, and leave MMM outside. I believe the thinking here was that [M]MM does not result in good musette sound. Whether it's unpleasant, or simply lacks the wallpaper-peeling qualities of true French or Scottish musette I don't know - has anyone had any experiences? Is [H] really worth putting into cassotto? Seems to be an unpopular option. Would a dry-tuned combination of [M]M with a se-tuned third musette voice M+ still work - has this been used in any accordions?

To sum up:
1) [L]M vs [LM]
2) [M]M vs MM
3) [M]M-M+ vs MM-M+ vs [M]MM+ Musette
4) [L]H vs [LH] & [LM]H vs [LH]M.


A related question - does anyone know what configuration (and de-tuning) did Dallape use for their "famous" balkan sound? Or was it more about the reed shape & steel quality?

Thank you.

 

[debra]

What a list of interesting questions! It will take several experts to get good answers to all of these. But as an amateur I can provide my humble thoughts here...
For many years I used to play a Crucianelli Super Video with LMMM and no cassotto. It had a nicely sounding musette (a bit wet too for my current taste, but I liked it at the time). When I then bought a Bugari 285/ARS with LMMMH it took a while to get used to how different MM and MMM sounded, and this was not because of the tuning (it was less wet) but because the middle M, in cassotto, didn't mix as well with the other M's as it did on the Crucianelli. I later experienced other accordions as well, and the effect of the cassotto on MM and MMM is definitely not the same everywhere. I like the MM and MMM sound coming from a Hohner Morino more than that of the Bugari, and this holds for both the Morino M and the later N and S series. It's hard to describe what it is exactly that makes MM sound so differently on the Hohner versus a Bugari (and other accordions, like Pigini, Victoria, Scandalli, etc.) However, no instrument with M in cassotto sounds quite like one without the cassotto. So I am pretty sure that when an accordion has LH in cassotti and all M reeds outside it is for the desired MM and/or MMM sound, not because H in cassotto is such a great idea. Some accordions have just L in cassotto and everything else outside, probably because H in cassotto is actually not such a great idea.
The effect of cassotto is to amplify the base frequency of the notes and to dampen the higher harmonics, thus together creating a louder and more mellow tone than without cassotto. Subjectively, the listener may clearly notice the more mellow tone but may not notice the volume difference. But when MM is played, with one M in cassotto, the two M's are a bit unbalanced. The "tremolo" is unbalanced in volume mostly as the louder M in cassotto clearly dominates the other M.
The tone of reeds in cassotto also varies with where inside the cassotto the reeds are positioned. On a PA typically most of the white keys have their reeds on the reed block deepest inside the cassotto, with L reeds deeper than the M reeds. The black keys are on the reed block in front of that, with the L reeds again deepest inside and the M reeds closest to the "exit" of the cassotto. As a result, black keys on the M register clearly sound less mellow (and are less amplified) than white keys. (Many accordions have between one and three white keys "mixed in" with the black keys and a careful listener can hear that when playing a C scale. You can hear the less mellow tone of the notes that are mixed with the black keys. On a CBA this effect is even stronger: the M on the third row is at the exit of the cassotto and sounds very clearly less mellow than the first and second row.
My observation has been that reed blocks, cassotto and other aspects of the accordion construction have much more effect on the sound than the reeds themselves. A friend of mine had a reed break in his Pigini Sirius bayan (CBA) and I replaced that broken a mano Salpa reed by an old machine reed from unknown origin (possibly not even Italian). He and I have not noticed any difference in sound between that note and adjacent notes. Higher quality reeds may be able to produce more volume, may waste less air (around the sides of the reed tongue) but in the end, inside the instrument, it made no difference. (It may matter more with low notes than with higher notes. This was somewhere around A5 I believe. I do not recall exactly.
Besides all your questions about cassotto of no cassotto and the effects on the sound I have an additional question which so far nobody has provided an answer for: Why does no accordion come with a cassotto that is perhaps 1cm deeper, so that also the reed bank closest to the exit of the cassotto benefits fully from being in the cassotto??? I know is has some implications like the levers having longer arms inside the cassotto, and the treble side being a bit larger, making the accordion just a bit wider, in the playing orientation. But the sound quality improvement should make this worth it...

 

[tcabot]

Thank you very much Paul. You are a wealth of knowledge, and it is very kind of you to share it!

If my starting point is [LH]MM-M+, and I want a more classical-oriented box, I was thinking of re-jigging it to [LM]MM+H. So LM in cassotto, with L being the deep block. Then M outside, in unison (or +2c) with [M]. Third M can either be taken out completely to reduce the weight, or make it M+, for either MM+ or [M]MM+ combo, swing-tuned perhaps.
Does this sound like a sensible plan (ignoring the ridiculous amount of time it will take me to do the work - I'm not in a hurry, and have another box to play).
[LH] does sound suspicious, but I believe it was done to maximise musette performance on the three Ms.

 

[debra]

Thank you very much Paul. You are a wealth of knowledge, and it is very kind of you to share it!

If my starting point is [LH]MM-M+, and I want a more classical-oriented box, I was thinking of re-jigging it to [LM]MM+H. So LM in cassotto, with L being the deep block. Then M outside, in unison (or +2c) with [M]. Third M can either be taken out completely to reduce the weight, or make it M+, for either MM+ or [M]MM+ combo, swing-tuned perhaps.
Does this sound like a sensible plan (ignoring the ridiculous amount of time it will take me to do the work - I'm not in a hurry, and have another box to play).
[LH] does sound suspicious, but I believe it was done to maximise musette performance on the three Ms.

I may not have been 100% clear... In cassotto are typically two blocks (on PA anyway). When you have LM in cassotto The deepest block holds L and M for (most of) the white keys and the block nearest the "exit" holds L and M for the black keys (and maybe a few white ones). When you look from the grille inwards they are thus M (black), L (black), M (white), L (white).
If you start out with LH in cassotto it would be difficult to "re-jig" it to LM in cassotto because the resonance chambers on the H side of each block are too small to hold M reeds.

 

[tcabot]

If you start out with LH in cassotto it would be difficult to "re-jig" it to LM in cassotto because the resonance chambers on the H side of each block are too small to hold M reeds.

Yes, thank you for the warning. If I go ahead, it will, indeed, be a Frankenstein project. I'd need to tweak the register switches too.
I can make my own reed blocks, as I have decently-equipped workshop. But you are correct, the order of depth will be ML_ML so one row of L will still be closer to the exit than the other.

I do wonder, if an Art Van Damme Excelsior-style resonance grid would help smooth out the difference.

That's OK - I am nursing the hope of getting a free bass converter into the left side too...

Unfortunately, the budget is not enough even for half of a used Jupiter bayan, but I think that with some thought, I can make very good use of quality Italian reeds in a re-built box, and have fun along the way.

 

[debra]

Yes, thank you for the warning. If I go ahead, it will, indeed, be a Frankenstein project. I'd need to tweak the register switches too.
I can make my own reed blocks, as I have decently-equipped workshop. But you are correct, the order of depth will be ML_ML so one row of L will still be closer to the exit than the other.

I do wonder, if an Art Van Damme Excelsior-style resonance grid would help smooth out the difference.

That's OK - I am nursing the hope of getting a free bass converter into the left side too...

Unfortunately, the budget is not enough even for half of a used Jupiter bayan, but I think that with some thought, I can make very good use of quality Italian reeds in a re-built box, and have fun along the way.

With a decent workshop you can make this conversion work. And if you can do fine metalwork you can also replace register sliders with new thin aluminium.
With LM in cassotto as the L reed banks are both well inside the cassotto I have not noticed an objectionable sound difference between them. The problem is only with the M reeds: one bank is deep inside (between the two L banks) and one bank is at the exit, often even already half outside the cassotto. Something you might try to diminish the problem with this M reed bank is to add a bit of length to the cassotto, at the exit. This is not easy, and the leversgoing to the non-cassotto pallets are in the way, so it's a tricky tinkering job, but it might be possible.
A for budget... if you play PA then a Hohner Morino (IV or V N or S) can often be found for under half the price of a used Jupiter bayan. And for similar amounts of money occasionally a fine Italian CBA can be found as well, for instance Excelsior (which used to build the Morino N and S). So we're talking about 2.000 to 2.500 euro, whereas you need to save up around 5.000 for a used Jupiter bayan...

 

[tcabot]

Thank you.
I'd rate my woodworking as 9.5/10, but metalwork is 2/10 at best.
The only job that really puts the fear in me is replacing felts on cassotto levers. I'm struggling to understand how the pallets can be attached to cover both soundboards perfectly at the same time. Doing a non-cassotto 3-voice box was hard enough.
The idea of extending the chamber is interesting.
Once I get a box, I'll no doubt flood the forum with questions, but for now it's good to get the cassotto options right. No [M] for musette, but with 5 voices I can have a [M]M and MM+ combo if I get the register switches to work, which should cover most bases.

 

[tcabot]

What about Accordiolas? Seems to be a better selection of B-griff instruments and prices are much tamer.
Jazzmaster was [LM]MMM I believe (A lot of Ms!)

 

[debra]

Thank you.
I'd rate my woodworking as 9.5/10, but metalwork is 2/10 at best.
The only job that really puts the fear in me is replacing felts on cassotto levers. I'm struggling to understand how the pallets can be attached to cover both soundboards perfectly at the same time. Doing a non-cassotto 3-voice box was hard enough.
The idea of extending the chamber is interesting.
Once I get a box, I'll no doubt flood the forum with questions, but for now it's good to get the cassotto options right. No [M] for musette, but with 5 voices I can have a [M]M and MM+ combo if I get the register switches to work, which should cover most bases.

Replacing felts (actually felt+leather) is not too hard. You need to replace them with felt+leather of the same thickness to avoid problems with the pallets in and outside of cassotto not closing together. You need to start by keyboard disassembly, measure the thickness of the felt+leather, which may be different for the pallets in cassotto and outside (inside cassotto sometimes thinner) and then order new sheets of felt+leather.
Should the final result still leave some notes not closing perfectly inside or outside of cassotto you need to bend the levers a tiny bit to make them close together. There are special tools for this, like "torciferri" (which translates to iron-bend ers). You can buy them from stores that also sell the felt+leather sheets.

 

[Dingo40]

I see Johnny Meijer has his accordion on a stand

 

[Pipemajor]

I see Johnny Meijer has his accordion on a stand

I think you'll find that is a mic. stand.
He has his accordion on his knees

 

[Dingo40]

I think you'll find that is a mic. stand.
He has his accordion on his knees

Thanks: time for new glasses!

 

[tcabot]

Why would he need a support stand? It's only a 5-voice instrument.

The [LM]MMM is intriguing. Was the purpose of this to provide full unbridled musette for popular (at the time) tunes and dry jazz sound in one accordion? Or just to add some extra weight to make the player's life more difficult?

Update: I thought he played a "Jazzmaster", but I now read that it was a "Chromaton V" Was it even an [LM]MMM then? Looking at the register switches it was a [L]MMMH with unknown voice in cassotto. Was it just a button version of "Piano V"?
If anyone has any knowledge on accordiola model ranges I would be grateful for the info.

I kind of gathered that "Piano V" was the piano version of "Chromaton V" with [LH]MMM and "Swingmaster" was the piano version of "Jazzmaster" with [LM]MMM. I might be wrong. Presumably, "Grand luxe" or "De luxe" indicated reed quality a mano vs tipo a mano? It looks like there were other models with similar configurations too though. Cassotto? Cassotto II?

 

[Deleted member 2438]

Thank you.
I'd rate my woodworking as 9.5/10, but metalwork is 2/10 at best.
The only job that really puts the fear in me is replacing felts on cassotto levers. I'm struggling to understand how the pallets can be attached to cover both soundboards perfectly at the same time. Doing a non-cassotto 3-voice box was hard enough.
The idea of extending the chamber is interesting.
Once I get a box, I'll no doubt flood the forum with questions, but for now it's good to get the cassotto options right. No [M] for musette, but with 5 voices I can have a [M]M and MM+ combo if I get the register switches to work, which should cover most bases.

Hi! To replace felt+leather in accordion with cassotto, I do it like this:
inside the cassotto I apply contact glue,
outside the cassotto: beeswax + rosin (colofonia) + linseed oil. obligatory conditions: the bonding must be done with the blocks (soniere) in place, adjusted and permanently fixed, then it is important that the shoes have a higher point in the center of the shoe that serves as self-levelling. Again, sorry, because the translation was with google translator.

 

[debra]

Hi! To replace felt+leather in accordion with cassotto, I do it like this:
inside the cassotto I apply contact glue,
outside the cassotto: beeswax + rosin (colofonia) + linseed oil. obligatory conditions: the bonding must be done with the blocks (soniere) in place, adjusted and permanently fixed, then it is important that the shoes have a higher point in the center of the shoe that serves as self-levelling. Again, sorry, because the translation was with google translator.

There is no reason for using different glue inside and outside the cassotto. Often plain white pva glue is used. The wooden pallets themselves are held attached to the aluminium levers with the same wax used for reed plates on the reed blocks. If the thickness is the same as before everything should work fine. If you end up with a "wheezer" (a note where one of the pallets isn't closing properly) you can adjust it by softening the wax (with a hairdryer) and then adjusting the pallet. To check whether pallets are closing properly you press the key, put a cigarette paper between pallet and soundboard, release the key and then check how much force is needed to pull out the paper.

 

[Deleted member 2438]

There is no reason for using different glue inside and outside the cassotto. Often plain white pva glue is used. The wooden pallets themselves are held attached to the aluminium levers with the same wax used for reed plates on the reed blocks. If the thickness is the same as before everything should work fine. If you end up with a "wheezer" (a note where one of the pallets isn't closing properly) you can adjust it by softening the wax (with a hairdryer) and then adjusting the pallet. To check whether pallets are closing properly you press the key, put a cigarette paper between pallet and soundboard, release the key and then check how much force is needed to pull out the paper.

I never use PVA glue, it is more permanent, harder, it is also corrosive to aluminum. the reason why I use two types of glue is because in the cassotto, many times as there is little space, the channels of the shoes are not very deep, I put contact glue, it holds well and moves.
When you have deep channels, I also put wax.
But normally, the shoes of the cassotto and the bas are glued with contact glue.

 

[tcabot]

Back to the voices options.
Just realised that Art Van Damme only had 3 voices, with an [L]LM configuration on his Excelsior 930. Another one to ask questions about - What's the benefit of putting one L in cassotto and one outside? Is it just the same effect as [M]M, but an octave lower?

 

[tcabot]

And I'd stock up well on food and water before clicking the next link.

 

[debra]

Back to the voices options.
Just realised that Art Van Damme only had 3 voices, with an [L]LM configuration on his Excelsior 930. Another one to ask questions about - What's the benefit of putting one L in cassotto and one outside? Is it just the same effect as [M]M, but an octave lower?
...

I have no idea what voices his accordion has. A friend of mine used to have an accordion with LLMM with one L and M in cassotto and oone L and M outside. I never saw the benefit of this except to make the low notes perhaps a bit more responsive. When you want to play low LLM gives you a stronger L sound in the mix, just like MMH does for stronger M versus H. But LLM versus MMH gives you a whole octave difference in the range of the accordion.

 

[Cv9200]

I bought a Vignoni Compact SE LMMH in Castlefiardo 3 years ago, with LM in Cassotto. The deepest reed block in the cassotto has M black keys (plus 3 'E's) facing down, and L black keys (plus 3 "e"s) facing up. The next block, closest to exit has M white keys (minus 3 'E's) facing down, and L white keys (minus 3 "e"s) facing up. All black keys, and 'E's sound reedy, while the white keys sound more mellow, clear and maybe stronger.

Another thing I noticed, which I don't like or understand, is when playing certain cords or notes together, like F3 and D4, in Bassoon, there is an unpleasant tremolo/vibrato, even though the tuning is fine, I checked One tuner told me that sound of "bees buzzing" happens sometimes with certain cassottos. Any comment?