Clicking of keys picked up by internal mics

[Mike K]

Another question on my mid 60s Giulietti (Zero Sette). It has three pickups mounted on treble side. With the lower keys, I do not really hear the keys clicking when amplified but in the higher ranges, the clicking gets considerably more noticeable. Pickups all appear the same and are wired in parallel to volume controls. Did they use different pickups for different frequency ranges? Only think I can think of that might cause the issue.

 

[Ventura]

technology was not sufficiently advanced back then to tune
individual mics to different frequencies except in a very primitive
and cumbersome way

more likely is just that the strength of the lower reeds amplified masks the
clicking

if you can isolate the clicks and test them for frequency, then
what we call a "notch" filter could be added inline between mics
and your amp

you can also just trim the high tone control on your PA channel down
a bit as it is possible the clicks are higher frequencies and could be
toned down without losing the higher reed frequencies

or find the clicking and make a few adjustments

sometimes as the pads age and get flattened a bit, you can spot
a crossover point or two where the round aluminum key action
mechanicals now tap each other when returning to rest.. popping those
keys out and a bit of judicious filing can take care of this easily
with no loss of strength

it is also possible occasionally that the plastic grilleworks can warp in a bit
and the tops of the keyactions will now touch in a few places

had to put two thick steel sheets over and under my little grey Hohner's
grille and let it heat in the sun for a few days once to flatten such a curve out

 

[debra]

Another question on my mid 60s Giulietti (Zero Sette). It has three pickups mounted on treble side. With the lower keys, I do not really hear the keys clicking when amplified but in the higher ranges, the clicking gets considerably more noticeable. Pickups all appear the same and are wired in parallel to volume controls. Did they use different pickups for different frequency ranges? Only think I can think of that might cause the issue.

In absolute volume (amplitude of the waves) higher notes are a lot softer than low notes. Our hearing is more sensitive to higher (mid-range) frequencies than lower frequencies to compensate. So we hear low and high notes as being equally loud whereas in absolute terms the lower notes are louder. As key clicks are all around the same frequencies the noise is drowned in the louder sound of he low notes but is much louder compared to the high notes (even though the keys make the same amount of noise).
The sound of the key clicks is just as loud compared to the music when you use external mics. When I make recordings (in a silent room at home) I use two mics that are about 3 feet from the accordion and I have to be very careful to play with a "soft touch" to reduce the key click sounds.
Key clicks can also be heard more clearly when you play single notes (not legato runs) because the key click precedes the sound of the note. This for instance is especially noticeable on my bass accordion. Even though the low notes are loud relative to the key clicks you can hear the clicks because they come before the note sounds.

 

[JIM D.]

These mic's you have in your Guilietti are quality crystal types made by astatic or Shure.
There are 3 solutions to your problem you can try. You can try 1, 2, or all three.
1 is turning your tone control down.
2 is locating the capacitor wired to the tone control pot and replace it with a higher
value capacitor.
3 your metal grill just might be amplifying the mechanical sounds created by your
treble keys. In this case gluing felt to the interior of the grill will reduce the
vibrations caused.

 

[Mike K]

These mic's you have in your Guilietti are quality crystal types made by astatic or Shure.
There are 3 solutions to your problem you can try. You can try 1, 2, or all three.
1 is turning your tone control down.
2 is locating the capacitor wired to the tone control pot and replace it with a higher
value capacitor.
3 your metal grill just might be amplifying the mechanical sounds created by your
treble keys. In this case gluing felt to the interior of the grill will reduce the
vibrations caused.

Hmm. my instructor had put felt on the interior of the grill and I took it off years ago. I thought it was dampening the sound when I was playing unamplified....doing some street busking. Maybe I have to try putting some back on. I thought it was to keep out, outside noises from being picked up.

 

[Ventura]

the problem with felt under the grille is exactly as you found out..
it acts as a physical tone control on everything - which may be
detrimental to the tone richness of the reeds as well as
damping the mechanical noise(s)

a physical, static tone control cannot be adjusted

this is why i prefer to felt under the keys on a noisy action, where there is often
open space that does not affect the key action but is close to where noises are often
produced and can absorb some before it bounces out and up

before you apply felt globally under the grille, i strongly suggest
you figure out where the noise is actually specifically being created so
you at least have a chance to address the "problem" directly with a
targeted solution that is minimally invasive

 

[debra]

Hmm. my instructor had put felt on the interior of the grill and I took it off years ago. I thought it was dampening the sound when I was playing unamplified....doing some street busking. Maybe I have to try putting some back on. I thought it was to keep out, outside noises from being picked up.

Felt under the grille does not serve to dampen keyboard (or pallet) noise, but to make the sound more mellow. I have used a strip of felt of 1 1/2 to 2 inches wide towards the front side of the grille to even out the sound on non-cassotto instruments. They tend to have notes with their pallets partly "covered" by the register mechanism, and the "opposing" notes (on the opposing reed block) can radiate their sound undampened. So half of the notes have a more mellow sound (covered) and the other half have a sharper sound (uncovered). The strip of felt evens this out. This is most noticeable on non-cassotto Giulietti accordions (because of the shape of the grille opening) but also appears on other accordions. I have even done this on my Pigini bass accordion. The strip of felt does not cover the "main" sound, so no problem with busking. However, if all of the grille is covered with felt then all of the sound is dampened. This is only a good idea if the accordion sound is way too sharp (like for instance on the Hohner Atlantic N series).
Every accordion has felt under the keys to dampen the noise of pressing the keys, and the pallets have felt to dampen the sound of releasing the keys. The felt hardens over time (mainly due to sustained/repeated compression), and as a result keyboard noise increases over time (over decades). On a 60's accordion the best and easiest way to reduce the keyboard sound is to replace the felt under the keyboard by new felt of the same thickness. That thickness must be measured at the end of the strip of felt (under the white keys), because at this end it has not been compressed by playing.

 

[JeffJetton]

My first thought would be to make sure that it's actually the mics' fault and that it's not a case of those notes having a more noticeable click even when played acoustically, due to worn felts or something. The mic might merely be calling the existing mechanical problem to your attention?

 

[debra]

My first thought would be to make sure that it's actually the mics' fault and that it's not a case of those notes having a more noticeable click even when played acoustically, due to worn felts or something. The mic might merely be calling the existing mechanical problem to your attention?

Exactly! When I make recordings with external mics at 3 feet distance the keyboard noise can be heard very well.

 

[godgi]

I have one accordion with some key board noise but i was recently comforted when i learnt that Nicola Benedetti in TV documentary complained about her "STRAD" being noisy whilst bowing but she said the audience couldn't hear it.
Godgi

 

[Dingo40]

Keyboard "rattle" is prominent in many YouTube recordings of quite a few accordionists, including one or two of our members.
However, if you really want some keyboard noise, try playing a carillon!

 

[Dingo40]

To be fair, they are not all this noisy. Take a listen:

An oxymoron :

 

[debra]

Keyboard "rattle" is prominent in many YouTube recordings of quite a few accordionists, including one or two of our members.
However, if you really want some keyboard noise, try playing a carillon!

Which is why a carillon is never recorded from close to the keyboard... The bells are so loud that there is plenty of volume to do a recording from a distance where the keyboard noise is drowned by background noise. With an accordion... not so much...

 

[JerryPH]

Which is why a carillon is never recorded from close to the keyboard... The bells are so loud that there is plenty of volume to do a recording from a distance where the keyboard noise is drowned by background noise. With an accordion... not so much...

But that said, using that same technique, it can work to some extent. Playing a little louder, placing external mics a foot further back might not completely erase the noises, but it will lessen them dramatically. That is also something that I said before... those mechanical noises are part of the personality of the accordion... embrace it!

 

[Ventura]

ahhhh
embrace it he says !

actually i argued against that thought with Roland intensely as they
not only programmed a noise underlayer of sound into their FR series
from the start (much of which could be turned off with painstaking effort)
but they had also embedded noise anomalies inside some of the raw sets
(from which i once made a set of just noises and warped pitches and weird whistles
to expose this)

they argued to be "Supernatural" about sound, you have to take the bad with the good

i argued that the point of Gola and Scandalli and Soprani and all the other
great empirics and engineers who LOVED the accordion was to find ways to
OVERCOME the material and natural weaknesses of the instrument, so as
to perfect and improve it always with the goal of perfection, perhaps never
fully attainable, but always the guiding principle

i still hold that position..

 

[debra]

ahhhh
embrace it he says !

actually i argued against that thought with Roland intensely as they
not only programmed a noise underlayer of sound into their FR series
from the start (much of which could be turned off with painstaking effort)
but they had also embedded noise anomalies inside some of the raw sets
(from which i once made a set of just noises and warped pitches and weird whistles
to expose this)

they argued to be "Supernatural" about sound, you have to take the bad with the good
...

What rubbish (that Roland argument). I might possibly believe them if they at least started by making the sound of the "reeds" themselves sound convincingly like real accordion sound. The Roland is still so far from sounding like an accordion that any effort to make it sound more "real" by adding noises like that of the keyboard are just annoyances in addition to the poor accordion sound.

 

[jozz]

My first thought would be to make sure that it's actually the mics' fault and that it's not a case of those notes having a more noticeable click even when played acoustically, due to worn felts or something. The mic might merely be calling the existing mechanical problem to your attention?

it's either this - maybe the box was played harder on the upper ranges, so that mechanical tolerances are now off and he gets more noise there
or
maybe the capsule(s) nearer the lower range have a defect and are not picking up the full frequency range anymore, not passing the higher pitched 'clicks' and rattles...

 

[JerryPH]

ahhhh
embrace it he says !

actually i argued against that thought with Roland intensely as they
not only programmed a noise underlayer of sound into their FR series
from the start (much of which could be turned off with painstaking effort)

The 8X has a parameter where we can turn it off, I have mine all turned off. I thought this thread was about acoustic accordion key noises. Let's see someone find the switch to turn those off... lol

My post was also about external mics, but likely would also do well (not as well as external mics) in reducing the mechanical sounds.

 

[Mike K]

Thanks everyone for replies. I think I will try gluing on a narrower strip of felt again and see what that does.