Converting a PA to a CBA

[Eurojazz]

Hello, new member here. Wondering if it's possible to convert an existing PA into a CBA.
I seem to gravitate and like the sound of the PAs from the 60's or older but I'm having a hard time finding a CBA of that era. I love that AVD Excelsior sound, Leon Sash's Giulietti, Alice Hall, or Mat Mathews's Hohner etc...The closest sound that I can think of that today is RG's Victoria.
The CBA seem hard to come by...hence my question. Obviously it would take a look of work but I wonder if it's remotely possible from a technical/luthier standpoint.
I appreciate thoughts/comments/ or even leads to CBA of that era. Many thanks!

 

[TomBR]

I've thought about it but concluded that although not impossible it would be extremely difficult. The CBA keyboard is so much more compact than the PA. It would mean building a new action. A PA keyboard can effectively have all the keys on a single "axle," a CBA will have two.

It's probably more possible on a small accordion. I was considering converting a Hohner 32 bass. Because of the difference in compactness between one octave of PA action and one octave of CBA action the more octaves you have on the keyboard the greater the offset needed at each end of the range for the lever to reach from the key out to the pallet.
Good luck if you're minded to try it!
Tom

 

[debra]

Hello, new member here. Wondering if it's possible to convert an existing PA into a CBA.
I seem to gravitate and like the sound of the PAs from the 60's or older but I'm having a hard time finding a CBA of that era. I love that AVD Excelsior sound, Leon Sash's Giulietti, Alice Hall, or Mat Mathews's Hohner etc...The closest sound that I can think of that today is RG's Victoria.
The CBA seem hard to come by...hence my question. Obviously it would take a look of work but I wonder if it's remotely possible from a technical/luthier standpoint.
I appreciate thoughts/comments/ or even leads to CBA of that era. Many thanks!

I have seen a report how someone did the opposite: convert CBA into PA, which was possible because it was one of the models that exist (or existed) in both PA and CBA in essentially the same body, only a different keyboard.
The same holds true for RG's CBA: it is one that existed in a PA and a CBA version. The CBA keyboard is thus placed where a PA has the keyboard and not placed more forward like on bayans. Especially in non-convertor accordion accordions many such "equivalent" PA and CBA models exist. The main internal difference is that on the PA there are empty spots in one of the reed blocks (the one for the black keys) whereas the CBA equivalent has all positions occupied. With such models the PA has 41 notes and the CBA has 46 notes. I owned a Bugari 285/ARS (5 voice, 41 notes, LMMMH with LM in cassotto) and after I changed to CBA I sold the 285 and bought a 505/ARS which is exactly the same but with a button keyboard and 46 notes. Needless to say such equivalent models have "the same sound". I put this in quotes because the distribution of the notes over the reed blocks is not identical, so if you can hear a small difference in sound between white and black keys on the PA on the M register, in cassotto, then you will notice this difference between half of the notes on the CBA and the other half. (The first row of buttons are all on the deepest block, the third row of buttons on the other block, and the second row of buttons is spread over both blocks.)
Rest assured, if you have such a PA from the 60's you should be able to find the equivalent CBA, sell the PA and buy the CBA and spend less than the conversion from PA to CBA would cost. And... because the CBA can give you 46 notes instead of 41 you need to find reeds for the extra 5 notes that sound the same as the reeds of the PA... better not even try.

 

[losthobos]

Might be worth considering what Leon, AVD, Alice and Mat recorded on. ...they all played different accordions but we have recordings of superb tones from all of them....

 

[Walker]

I guess you could create your own Franken-cordion...

Or you could just ask an expert to build you one.

Show us how it's done Serenellini...




​

 

[Eurojazz]

Thanks for the replies.

Building an accordion is a solution but it doesn't solve the issue of reed/wood quality.
The old boxes while generally heavier sound better than the ones made today. Mechanically however today's keyboards tend to be more reliable but personally I'm after sound first and foremost.

While the point about recording is fair, but I don't think that's it...listen to live videos.
AVD [https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/...ith-the-art-van-damme-news-footage/1270682005]
Mat Mathews []... he sounds the same out of a "shitty" camera mic. 15 years ago. This is no RCA 44 or 77 ribbon mic, that's for sure lol!

@debra Any idea where to find such CBA instruments? Not sure Excelsior was making CBA at that time, were they? I've been browsing the net for a long while and it's a challenge compare to all the Victoria/Titano/Giulietti/Excelsior available as a PA.

I appreciate any help/lead on that. Many thanks guys.

 

[debra]

...
@debra Any idea where to find such CBA instruments? Not sure Excelsior was making CBA at that time, were they? I've been browsing the net for a long while and it's a challenge compare to all the Victoria/Titano/Giulietti/Excelsior available as a PA.

I appreciate any help/lead on that. Many thanks guys.

Victoria made them, because Richard Galliano played one.
Scandalli made the Super Chromo in the same period as the legendary Super VI.
Hohner made CBA versions of the Gola in the same time period.
Hohner also made CBA versions of the Morino VI.
The Super Chromo and the CBA Gola and Morino had more notes than the reed blocks of the PA versions could contain.
(I have a later Artiste X S and it comes in the same case as the PA Morino but uses narrower reed plates to fit 28 reed plates on each reed block instead of the 23 that fit on the PA versions.)

 

[Eurojazz]

Galliano's model is from 1962 and he was born in 1950. I'm guessing the video above of Mat Mathews is a not a Morino VI, it only has 2 reeds by the looks of it. What type of Morino is it?

 

[Dingo40]

Show us how it's done Serenellini...

Nothing to it!

 

[dak]

Victoria made them, because Richard Galliano played one.
Scandalli made the Super Chromo in the same period as the legendary Super VI.
Hohner made CBA versions of the Gola in the same time period.
Hohner also made CBA versions of the Morino VI.

I would not call it a "CBA version" when the reed block geometry is quite different and consequently the button levers are all straight as opposed to crooked levers for bastardized PA versions. The Morino Artistes (at least the 4-reed versions) have very direct action. I have an Excelsior CBA with reedblock geometry probably similar to PA versions, it has fat crooked levers that not only weigh more than the mechanics of an Artiste but also lead to dead buttons on the keyboard at the left and right and a mushier action on the ends of the instruments.

I am not sure that the bass side of the Morino VI has a CBA equivalent. At least we established that the Morino IV isn't comparable to the Morino Artiste VI (a 4-reed CBA with a 5-reed standard bass). I should think that a CBA Gola also is not merely a bastardized PA instrument. Both Giovanni Gola and Venanzio Morino were Italians from a period where Italians were very much proud of their CBA tradition.

 

[Eurojazz]

@dak What year is your CBA Excelsior? Any videos out there to check out the sound? Thanks for your valuable insight.
Gola is a great instrument for sure but on the heavy side.

 

[PhiliGol]

Any idea where to find such CBA instruments? Not sure Excelsior was making CBA at that time, were they? I've been browsing the net for a long while and it's a challenge compare to all the Victoria/Titano/Giulietti/Excelsior available as a PA.

I appreciate any help/lead on that. Many thanks guys.

What type of Morino is it?

To me that's a a very special custom Hohner Gola.
Concluding from the 3 switches presumably 2 voices (only) - likely both (16" and 8") in cassotto.
AS I'm not a CBA player I can't judge it's tone range - but seems extraordinary.
I wouldn't be surprised if Paul tomorrow morning will take his Bayan and the biggest CBA he owns and
1) confesses that none of his instruments can't compete with that treble tone-range (is that deepest one really a treble tone? )
2) comes back with a precise no. of total treble tones

 

[dak]

@dak What year is your CBA Excelsior? Any videos out there to check out the sound?

I am afraid that I bought it used from the heir of a previous owner. It's a very direct sound, no cassotto LMMH, 5 reed standard bass, MIDI. I don't think I have much of an outside recording yet.

Here is a mixed bag with the MIDI, but I am afraid that there is not a lot you can hear of the actual acoustic instrument:

Thanks for your valuable insight.
Gola is a great instrument for sure but on the heavy side.

The Excelsior is definitely not on the light side. It's significantly heavier than my free bass Morino that has way more reed plates.

 

[Eurojazz]

Thanks @dak, yeah a little tough to tell but thank you for sharing. The MIDI might be contributed to the extra weight. Are you sure this is a PA case because it looks pretty thick and deep?

 

[dak]

Thanks @dak, yeah a little tough to tell but thank you for sharing. The MIDI might be contributed to the extra weight. Are you sure this is a PA case because it looks pretty thick and deep?

I am not saying this is a PA case, just that the reedblock geometry does not fit a CBA well, resulting in crooked key levers and dead keys. For whatever reason, I have some old images on my desktop of it, and here you can see its innards:

You see that the treble side has only 4 reed blocks and a big free space where the keyboard is on the front. My 4-reed Morino Artistes have six reed blocks of which 1½ (corresponding to the L reed) end up right behind the keyboard tray and have separate round holes and pallets with a coupling mechanism for the L reed instead of a register slider: a so-called Déclassement with a Cassotto-like character. This is just the case for the Morino Artiste M series (and possibly earlier models): the later 4-reed Morino Artiste N and S series have register sliders everywhere and only rectangular pallets covering 4 square holes instead of, like my own model, 3. As a result, one button row (rather than one reed bank) sounds distinctly different. Ouch.

The Excelsior above has all of its 4 reed banks above the keyboard tray, ending with open sound behind a comparatively tall grille. Due to only using 2 instead of 3 rows of reed plates per reed bank, it runs out of pallets to support the whole breadth of the keyboard:



I don't think the MIDI adds all that much weight, to be honest. It's just a bulky instrument:

 

[Eurojazz]

Wow yeah that's super strange. I've never seen anything like that. What does the face plate say on the left hand side? I can't quite make it out...

 

[dak]

To me that's a a very special custom Hohner Gola.
Concluding from the 3 switches presumably 2 voices (only) - likely both (16" and 8") in cassotto.
AS I'm not a CBA player I can't judge it's tone range - but seems extraordinary.

Not really. The rows have, if I count correctly, 102 buttons, B system, likely B♭2 to D7 (highest note only in fourth row) in the 8' register. My own Morino has pretty much the same range in LMMM (A2 to C♯7 because it is C system, lowest note only in fourth row). I don't think we see anything but the top register in play here, so it is likely L we hear. So the range is not all that extraordinary: I think quite a few 4-reed instruments from Hohner have it, though if it involves an H reed, it wraps around in the last octave.

I wouldn't be surprised if Paul tomorrow morning will take his Bayan and the biggest CBA he owns and
1) confesses that none of his instruments can't compete with that treble tone-range (is that deepest one really a treble tone? )
2) comes back with a precise no. of total treble tones

As far as I know Paul has a) a Morino Artiste XS which has a smaller total range in the keyboard but 5 reeds b) a bayan which goes down all the way to E2 in M and E1 in L but doesn't reach as high in the keyboard range as the depicted Gola in spite of having 64 notes in the keyboard rather than the Gola's 62.

 

[dak]

Wow yeah that's super strange. I've never seen anything like that. What does the face plate say on the left hand side? I can't quite make it out...

It's not a face plate. It's 4 rocker switches labelled L, M, M+, and H. No combination registers. Maybe they would have interfered with the MIDI installation, no idea. Actually not a place for register switches that I care about all that much, even though my main instrument also foregoes the combination registers.

 

[Eurojazz]

It's not a face plate. It's 4 rocker switches labelled L, M, M+, and H. No combination registers. Maybe they would have interfered with the MIDI installation, no idea. Actually not a place for register switches that I care about all that much, even though my main instrument also foregoes the combination registers.

Sorry to be clear, I meant your Left hand front plate.

 

[dak]

Sorry to be clear, I meant your Left hand front plate.

The best I have right now. I'll have to check what's left on the right side tomorrow.