Cooperativa Jolly Question

[TW]

Some of you will know that my Cooperfisa Jolly is a special 80 bass 5 row CBA, MIDI equipped and with two spare reed blocks to allow different tunings. The reeds are said to be hand made bombate reeds - but Im not sure how to tell....

The original owner suggested that the following combination sets were available :-

<TAB tab=30>[tab=30]</TAB>L, M, L/M, L/M/M+ (straight tuning)
<TAB tab=30>[tab=30]</TAB> M, M/M+, M-/M/M+, M/M- (musette tuning)

depending upon which blocks were used .

In the picture the musette set up is shown; banks 5 and 2 are the exchangeable ones.The spare, unfitted, banks are marked 2 NERA and 5 NERA.
I have asked, on the previous forum, whether the notation shown (+,-,F,NERA) had obvious meaning but no suggestions were made.

My question is:-
Is there a reason why the other two combinations (5 NERA with musette block 2 or 5 musette with the L reeded block) shouldnt work harmoniously?

I know Ill have to try it at some time out of curiosity but, because the accordion is so small, block exchange is fairely fiddly and to avoid four setups I thought I would ask whether members would hazard a guess as to what the result would be.

 

[JIM D.]

Hi TW; A fair question. Maybe this will help you -- First of all the (L) reed set is a dry set of bassoon reeds in perfect tuning -- the (M) reed set is a dry set of clarinet which are reeds 1 octave higher than (l) also in perfect tuning -- the (M+) set are (M) reeds tuned to a slightly higher pitch and called wet tuned -- the (M-) set are (M) reeds tuned to a slightly lower pitch and are also called wet tuned. A set of wet reeds have to sound with a set of dry reeds to create a tremolo effect.The sets the original owner suggested are the proper mix of dry and wet reed combo's. To get a proper tremolo sound a dry set of reeds must be sounding with 1 or 2 wet sets. If you install your reed blocks so that only the wet (M-) and (M+) set sound on a note without a dry (L) or (M) set sounding the tremolo effect will be extreme and not unlike the sound of someone strangling a cat! Your two replacement sets of reed blocks have 1/2 of a (l) or basson set replaced by two blocks with 1/2 sets of wet (M) reeds, Musically yours; JIM D.

 

[TW]

Thank you for the explanation JIM_D, absolutely clear now and I have settled for the musette tuning for the time being.

I couldn't resist playing with the mixture tho', so on the way to the musette setup I left the straight bassoon bank in, added the musette of bank 5, closed up and played.

What an odd effect; your suggestion of 'strangled cat' is remarkably close....!

I tried to attach an mp3 showing this with a few seconds of Flat Water Fran first using the straight tuned setup selected using the lowest coupler and the lowest octave of the keyboard (which gives mostly the bassoon reeds) and the same selection but with the musette bank 5 replacing the straight reeds of bank 5 but it wasn't allowed.

 

[BobM]

Hi TW; A fair question. Maybe this will help you -- First of all the (L) reed set is a dry set of bassoon reeds in perfect tuning -- the (M) reed set is a dry set of clarinet which are reeds 1 octave higher than (l) also in perfect tuning -- the (M+) set are (M) reeds tuned to a slightly higher pitch and called wet tuned -- the (M-) set are (M) reeds tuned to a slightly lower pitch and are also called wet tuned. A set of wet reeds have to sound with a set of dry reeds to create a tremolo effect.The sets the original owner suggested are the proper mix of dry and wet reed combos. To get a proper tremolo sound a dry set of reeds must be sounding with 1 or 2 wet sets. If you install your reed blocks so that only the wet (M-) and (M+) set sound on a note without a dry (L) or (M) set sounding the tremolo effect will be extreme and not unlike the sound of someone strangling a cat! Your two replacement sets of reed blocks have 1/2 of a (l) or basson set replaced by two blocks with 1/2 sets of wet (M) reeds, Musically yours; JIM D.

Just to add to this, it’s possible to have a bespoke M M tuning, rather than the % rate being equal and opposite, mine’s tuned so that the M+ reed set is tuned differently from the M-, 16% sharp and M- 5% flat.
This means that I won’t have a “true” musette tone, but have enough for my needs, and it also means that I have different levels of de-tuning, going from almost nothing, which gives a nice shimmering tone right through to the M- and M+ only, or Master on.
I really like the L reed with the M-, It gives a Bandoneon “Plus” tone, or Brass lead.

BobM.

 

[TW]

Hello BobM, I appreciated your citing of the asymmetric tuning of your reeds to give the 'shimmering' tone you describe which was new to me but I didn't like the bassoon reeds with M- when I tried it on the Jolly.
I am very content with the current musette setup and the MIDI though on that instrument.

Having said that, I think that the reed adjustments available on any Roland, without fiddling with the insides or involving a professional tuner, are the reason that I prefer the sampled instrument over the acoustic so this, my last remaining acoustic, will be hitting the road soon.

Good job we don't all like the same thing...

 

[BobM]

Having said that, I think that the reed adjustments available on any Roland, without fiddling with the insides or involving a professional tuner, are the reason that I prefer the sampled instrument over the acoustic so this, my last remaining acoustic, will be hitting the road soon.

Good job we dont all like the same thing...

I wonder whether you can have asymmetric” tuning on a Roland?

BobM.

 

[JIM D.]

Yes Bob there is a Musette Detune feature on Roland models. The possibilities are: Off(no detune), Dry, Classic, F-Folk, American L, American H, Alpine, Italian L, German H Alpine, Italian H, D-Folk H, French, and Scottish. JIM D.

 

[TW]

BobM - I'm so glad that JIM_D replied to give you the detune specs.

I saw your post earlier today and, while I employ the musette detune feature, I didn't know whether asymmetry was possible.

It isn't - for sure on the old FR models and I don't see it in the X manuals either. There is a plethora of reed parameters you can adjust on the Roland but it looks as if you need an air-turbine and an acoustic machine with physical reeds to achieve your 'shimmering' setup!

Again, good job we don't all like the same thing...!

 

[JIM D.]

Hi TW; I'm afraid we are wandering from this thread. I have many suggestion's on how to detune Roland models and acoustic accordions with midi installed. If I have some time this week I'll start a thread on this topic. JIM D.

 

[BobM]

If I have some time this week Ill start a thread on this topic. JIM D.

Yes, it has wandered off a bit..

BobM.

 

[TW]

I have many suggestions on how to detune Roland models and acoustic accordions with midi installed. If I have some time this week Ill start a thread on this topic.

Look forward to that JIM_D.