Fantini CBA's.

[Geoff de Limousin]

Any thoughts on Fantini CBA's or any of their products ?
I know there are lots of posts when one searches here on that name but perhaps some direct thoughts as to quality, sound and comparisons to other fine accordions like Victoria,Bugari or Pigini etc.
I guess I am looking at the 96 bass, what they call a CRR/37/KK . It appears to have the voices I want and the size/weight etc. but their website does not list a French agent .

 

[maugein96]

Geoff,

Emilio Allodi in London is the main UK dealer, and Fantini make the Allodi branded instruments.

Here is a link to the Allodi site that refers specifically to Fantini accordions.

http://www.accordions.co.uk/fantini.htm

The CCR/37/KK model you are interested in is configured LMMH, so no three voice musette. I believe you prefer musette tuned instruments?

There used to be a site which gave sound samples of Fantini accordions, possibly a previous French distributor, who is no longer an agent. Ill try and find it again

Problem you have if you order via a UK distributor, as you probably know already, youll pay through the nose with all the usual tax add-ons.

Ive no experience of Fantini boxes, but they are well enough respected with a great sound. If Allodi has commissioned them I would reckon they would be as good as any of the other Italian big names.

 

[maugein96]

Sorry Geoff,

Memory is going down the drain. Sound samples I was thinking of were for Fisitalia.

Found a clip of English/Ukrainian guy named Les Thompson/Basil Bunelik playing a Fantini LMMH with cassotto, but its a PA. Les/Basil is a forum member but I dont know what his user name is.

As youll hear, the Fantini has a pretty awesome sound, and the tune is played slowly enough that you can hear the different treble registers. I normally struggle to pick up the tone differences with LMMH boxes, but I can discern them easily with this tune. Most demos are too fast for my old ears, but this isnt a demo.

I would have no qualms about ordering and playing a Fantini, provided you can find a dealer. Quality would appear to be up there with the best, but again I have never owned or played one.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Many thanks for the responses Maugein96.

Yes I am fond of the 3 voice Musette... prefer it with a Basson voice... I like the octave tuning , and better still with an extra flute or two tuned wet-ish. But I have long had a hankering for an LMMH.... most of those on offer secondhand are really too big for me being Vedette 10's or Super Regents.. the Crucianelli Super King might be a tiny bit smaller ... but I think I would like a 96 LMMH and the Fantini website says it is 39 high x 19 deep... (probably follows your Italian 'International' format) and weighs 8.8 kg. I've a few accordeons in the house and none of them is as slim as that , in fact two of them are 24 deep ! 2" less stretch around the box would add greatly to my comfort... I think?
The other 96's with 4 voices are fat boxes like the Accordiola model 12's.

One other thing I miss since trading my Cassoto models is the ability to select 'Basson only'... I really loved playing the Mini Sonora basson voice in the upper end of the keyboard... a real 'wooden Pipe Organ' or fairground organ tone. We all make mistakes and let good things go when something else twinkles at us... put it down to experience and move on.

I know Allodi's shop, never been in but it is just around the corner from where I was brung-up... so I might contact him.

I'd never heard of Fantini Accordions but someone is selling one here, almost the same model... a bit pricy but I'm sure it will be cheaper than a New one.

 

[debra]

One person in an orchestra I play in has a Fantini and isn't very enthusiastic, but I guess it was mostly a matter of trying to get an LMMH 120 bass PA too cheaply. As the quality of the "average" instrument in the orchestra is Hohner Morino N series it's not a surprise the Fantini (cheap model without cassotto) cannot stand up to the rest.

 

[maugein96]

Accordions are getting like cars, and I don't think I'd ever buy new these days, as I'm too mean to take the depreciation hit.

The box is indeed "internazionale", and there is only one caveat. If you look at the size of the treble buttons you'll see that they are considerably larger than the small French buttons. The diameters will be written down somewhere, but I don't know them offhand.

I have a Marinucci CBA which has buttons that fall somewhere in between the size of your standard Cava/Maugein and the Fantini. A 20 button row on my my Marinucci is about 1cm longer end to end than on my Cava Bal Musette, and it may be reasonable to assume that the Fantini might even span a slightly greater distance.

The effect of this is that if you're used to the usual "jumps" on a French box, it is often the case that your jump is slightly short on an Italian keyboard with bigger buttons.
I seem to remember you use all 5 right hand fingers, so it is not too crucial, although you might hit the wrong button or buttons occasionally through unfamiliarity.

For years I only had two boxes, the Marinucci and the Cava, and I favoured the Marinucci whilst I had them. The swap from French to Italian was fairly painless and I got used to the bigger buttons after a fairly short time. In fact I found the bigger buttons suited me slightly better in some respects. However, when I got my Maugein, and had to go back to smaller buttons I struggled quite a bit, especially as the Maugein keyboard was very fast. It took me a lot longer to convert back to the smaller buttons, and my accuracy was all over the place for months.

If you play two button sizes regularly you do become accustomed to the constant swapping over, but there is still a tendency to fluff it when there are big spreads involved. Hopefully you'll be able to try the Fantini out before you buy it, and you'll see what I mean. Those big buttons can also feel a wee bit slower, but no two boxes are the same as they say.

If I was going back to Italian I'd probably go for something with slightly smaller buttons than a Fantini, but I have small hands.

I notice that Paul has said he knows somebody who doesn't care for his Fantini. They probably wouldn't suit everybody, and might not be the choice for people playing along with other accordionists for whatever reason. None of my boxes would be any good for orchestral work, but I'm not going to throw any of them away. Best to try it out and see if it will fit in with what you want it for.

Hope you get your wish.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Looking at Allodi's price lists these Fantini models do not look expensive, nothing like the prices one might expect from the Cavagnolo or Maugein. I did see a similar Bugari 96 secondhand at a similar price ( but it was sold) ... Oh , I am in no hurry... just gathering facts and impressions....

Thanks Paul and M96!!

 

[debra]

Accordions are getting like cars, and I don't think I'd ever buy new these days, as I'm too mean to take the depreciation hit.

The box is indeed "internazionale", and there is only one caveat. If you look at the size of the treble buttons you'll see that they are considerably larger than the small French buttons. The diameters will be written down somewhere, but I don't know them offhand.

...

I am beginning to side with you on the new versus used dilemma, especially since new instruments seem to always come with defects nowadays and presumably these have been ironed out in a (lightly) used instrument.

Regarding button sizes so far I have seen three (and I have instruments with all three sizes here). The "small" buttons like on french instruments are also common on CBA's with convertor, because they tend to have more notes and thus require more buttons. I do have an exception here: the Bugari 508/ARS/C (which is no longer made) which has buttons a bit larger, but smaller than on non-convertor Bugari CBA's or on bass accordions.
It is somewhat difficult to switch between instruments with different size buttons, but as long as you don't play the same songs on both it's not so bad.

 

[maugein96]

I've had three new accordions in my lifetime, and the only one I've had any trouble with was a cheap little Hohner Nova. It took a few months to "play in", and even now it's not perfect. It was bought in 2015, whereas my other new purchases, a Guerrini and a Cavagnolo, gave me no problems, but both of those were made in the 80s when both instruments were made in Europe and quality control still played an important part in the production process. I have a few excellent electric guitars which were made in various Asian countries, and the quality is excellent. I'm led to believe they can manage the same with accordions, but they aren't exported to Europe. Maybe some day?

I regularly see decent (looking) used CBAs going in France at well under half of their new price, where the model is still in production. In cases where it is an old model or the maker has gone bust they are often very much cheaper.

I've also experienced three different sizes of buttons, with only the Guerrini having the largest size. I like the idea of not using instruments with different sized buttons to play the same tunes. That makes perfect sense, and I'll try and remember to do that when the Marinucci is being aired.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Quality control is very important . I've been a musical instrument maker for nearly 40 years now and, I work alone. If each of my customers had a problem with their instrument only every 5 years I could see one or more instruments coming back to me for remedial work each week! I would certainly get little else done in the way of new products and probably go bust in the process. I try to make everything so's it never comes back to bite me in the backside.

I have bought only one new accordeon and that had to go back to be tuned and all the reeds and valves set properly!

Thanks for the details about button size and keyboard spread, I'll be measuring all my accordions to see where a standard is ( or isn't). I have noticed a difference with the inclination of buttons on the Stradella basses... some shallower, some steeper... this does cause some hand position adjustments.

I have emailed Fantini, see if I get a response on prices and french agents.

 

[maugein96]

Don't think there will actually be a Fantini distributor in France, as I've never seen any adverts for them over the years.

How it used to work in the UK was that some dealers would undertake to order a box for you from a maker they ordinarily never dealt with. The dealer could not speak Italian, but would nevertheless ask you how many diamantes you wanted on it, what precise colour you would like, your name on the front etc., etc., etc. After all they wanted to maximise their profit on a one off deal. You then paid a deposit and waited, and waited, and waited....... Normal waiting time from order to delivery varied, but you'd often be told it could be a few months.

Maybe three months later you would chase it up to be told that there was a "problem" somewhere, but if you were lucky it would eventually arrive, weeks or months after the date you had been promised. You then went to pick it up to discover that it wasn't actually what you had ordered, but the dealer was still looking for the cash to finalise the deal. You never had a chance to play it until it materialised, and even if you had managed to have a go on one before placing the order, the one in the dealer's shop wasn't exactly the same, particularly if it had musette tuning.

If you were lucky, and I really mean this, the maker would decline to supply the dealer unless they ordered, and paid for, a demo range of that maker's instruments, with a view to the dealer becoming a distributor. In those circumstances it was a straightforward "no deal". You never got ripped off and the dealer never had the hassle of trying to tell the maker they'd got something wrong, in a foreign language.

What I'm trying to say to anybody contemplating a new instrument, if there are no official distributors near to where you live, you may be as well to consider another make and/or model of box. If you are a professional player of some standing (sorry dreaming again!) the maker might recognise you and make a special effort to comply with your wishes, but if it is a more or less standard production model, and your name doesn't register in the all time greats, you just have to end up taking what you get.

The one and only time I tried this I was still waiting for the accordion I ordered over a year later, and as communication between myself and the dealer became difficult, I ultimately cancelled the order, losing my deposit. As I lived in Scotland and the transaction was handled under English Law it wasn't viable to try and sue for my money back. Although I'll never know what actually happened, it appears to have been the case that the dealer had made an error with the bass configuration, and Piermaria naturally refused to alter it without recompense. The fact that my order had been a one off "special" for export was probably a factor, and the dealer concerned is now deceased. My experience may have been unique to my particular order, but I've heard other tales of woe from the days when such transactions were carried out on a regular basis (when the accordion was more popular than it is now).

If I can think of any positive experiences on this topic, I'll be sure to post it.

In the meantime "caveat emptor", as they say.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Thanks for that Mc. Maugein (opps sorry) 96,

I emailed Fantini this morning and received a very quick reply saying they" have reprasentatives in France. You go directly from us". Mis translation perhaps ? But their quoted price was less than the secondhand model I 've seen advertised !! AND about half the price of a new Bugari of similar size... all very puzzling. So, I have asked them more questions, about options and if that price includes sales tax etc....

The way it looks, and from what you are saying, they probably do not have an agent in France and a 4/5 reed 96 bass CBA with double cassoto at the price they have quoted might be a chinese import .

The secondhand fantini is a day's drive east of here... isn't everything I see a day's drive from the centre of this country. Ha...! :?

 

[maugein96]

Hi Geoff,

Exactly what I was saying in the previous post. Even if you get all the specs correct there's a good chance they won't, due to the language problem. I don't know whether they have any manufacturing work carried out in Asia, and you might have to ask them that outright! However, I would be very wary of doing that in case somebody's pride gets hurt.

As you suspect the price quoted will probably be nothing like the final invoice/estimate, although I think you are wiser than I am with your manufacturing background of musical instruments.

Maybe somebody on here can confirm where Fantinis are made, although if there had been anything negative in that respect I get the feeling you'd have known about it by now.

The other thing is, they might just have a secondhand "usato" in stock, and it could be that they are interested in selling you. You might get a bargain, but unfortunately you just won't know. I think I would get the car ready for that day's drive!

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Hi Geoff,


The other thing is, they might just have a secondhand "usato" in stock, and it could be that they are interested in selling you. You might get a bargain, but unfortunately you just won't know. I think I would get the car ready for that day's drive!

Yes I think you are right there.... but we are also talking secondhand Bugari prices so perhaps I might wait for one of those to turn up... caution, I've jumped too soon before now and am a little wary... many thanks again for the sage advice!!

 

[TomBR]

Just a bit of a tangent - I wouldnt have expected any taxes or duties issues between UK and France (OK thatll change but thats a political subject not suitable for discussion here.) On that basis I would have thought this page worth a look
http://www.accordions.co.uk/fantini.htm
By all accounts Emilio Allodi seems to have a very good reputation, though hes also a very busy man.
On the other hand if you can deal direct and in person with Fantini.....

 

[maugein96]

Hi Tom,

I did suggest that Geoff possibly got in touch with Emilio Allodi earlier in the thread, and posted the same link as you did.

You are right about the import duty and taxes etc., it's just that I've usually always found UK retail prices for musical instruments to be higher than in mainland Europe. I have no idea why that is the case.

Looks like Geoff is about to reconsider in any event.

Don't blame you Geoff. He who hesitates is often the richer man at the end of the day. Better to spend nothing than waste twice as much on what you never really wanted, as my old Irish grandfather used to tell us!

 

[TomBR]

Hi Tom,

I did suggest that Geoff possibly got in touch with Emilio Allodi earlier in the thread, and posted the same link as you did.

You are right about the import duty being the same for UK and France, it's just that I've usually always found UK retail prices for musical instruments higher than in mainland Europe.

Looks like Geoff is about to reconsider in any case.

Doh! I knew I should have checked back!
Thanks
Tom

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Thanks for the Allodi link TomBR.... lots of interesting stuff about Fantini.... cheers!

 

[hais1273]

A good friend of ours has two Fantini CBA's a 3/4 72 bass LMM and a 4/5 96 LMMM, they're gigged regurlarly for folk and jazz. I can't remember our friend ever saying anything negative about them. The 96 bass is wired for sound as well, it sounds fine to me. He also uses a Vignoni 4/5 96 bass LMMH also wired for sound. They all sound very fine...

Recently, I was lucky enough to be able to buy a more or less bespoke 34/96 Vignoni PA. It took about weeks from order to delivery to Emilios's shop in Lewisham. (Including the Italian August factory holiday) and it was obviously checked thoroughly before I took it away.

If you check the prices of new boxes from other deallersin the UK Allodi Accordions often comes out very well. Plus Emilio is a very nice guy indeed!

A chat with Emilio could be helpful...

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Many thanks for those thoughts hais1273,

I'm building up a nice picture of a hitherto unknown (to me) maker.

cheers,
Geoff.