Frontalini frustration….

[Mr Mark]

Ever worked on one of these? Every where I turn this old accordion is exhibiting some rather poor design elements…from the nut and bolt assembly with no access to the nut for holding down reed blocks to the downright nightmare of a bass mechanism - I will probably never touch one of these again .

This came to me with fallen in bass buttons. Unbeknownst to me somebody somewhere along the way has already taken this apart and mixed up and bent a lot of the rods. This also required removal of the faceplate to get the mechanism out - there was no way those rods were going back in the holes elsehow.

So once you get it all apart you start to realize the problem - due to the way the rods flop loosely without support you literally have to take everything apart just to get the pistons back in the holes - they literally flop every which way. Now, the other end of the piston has the funky flat O shapes with tangs for the catorcetti…so, if you get one of these wrong you have to take the whole thing apart again…so….

Bass reeds have been taped off as this is now a treble instrument only. .

Just curious if anyone has a better (and obvious) way to get the pistons back in the faceplate holes without taken it all apart…not that I would mess with one of these again, but would like to know

 

[Dingo40]

Thanks for the warning!
There's been some of this make advertised for sale around here.

 

[debra]

While this is certainly not a great design, it has one big advantage over most modern Italian bass mechanisms: it comes out as one assembly (like in old Hohners). That lets you access parts better and also lets you see better inside what's going on. I would not blame Frontalini for the errors made by a previous repairer who bent rods or catorcetti out of shape and who mixed up pistons.
Sorry, I don't have a better way to get the pistons back in place without first taking it all apart, but as a repairer taking bass mechanisms completely apart and putting them back together is a (laborious) routine job, no matter what brand of accordion you have. (Not my favorite job, but when it is needed I will not refuse it.) What I hate most is fixing the errors made by previous repairers though...

 

[Mr Mark]

Well, it is what it is…unfortunately way too much trial and error will be involved to fix this. It’s one of those things where I feel bad because I said I could fix it, but now realize I cannot - If I had a month of bank rolled Sundays maybe…

No blame to Fromtalini…always reminding myself these things were pretty good for the time, this same could be said for slotted screws I suppose .

The fully re-assembled bass mechanism with faceplate picture is as good as it gets .

*washes hands*

 

[jozz]

Just curious if anyone has a better (and obvious) way to get the pistons back in the faceplate holes without taken it all apart…not that I would mess with one of these again, but would like to know

cut and re-braze

 

[Ventura]

on the other hand, it is also true that Frontalini was one of the
golden age brands that dissapeared rather sooner than later

their models were certainly visually appealing and stood out
from the crowd

 

[boxplayer4000]

Frontalini Bass.
I’d say to MrMark, don’t give up on this one and to think your way into the shoes of the skilled Italian who put it together in the first place.
He probably built it from the bottom up (the fundamental and counter bass parts are nearest the bottom/closest to the pallets). I notice the button face plate is already removed and I suggest you build a ‘rig’ consisting of the bass mechanism frame secured to a board and the button face plate also secured in a position which replicates the assembled accordion.
It is noticed from your photographs that the bass and counter-bass buttons/pistons are shorter than the chord ones so already you have 40 of the 120 buttons partly identified. To distinguish between the fundamental bass buttons and the counter-bass buttons one of the differences is going to be the vertical offset of the buttons in relation to the flat, oval plate at the rear of the pistons. With the flat plates held firm and the offset of the button measured I feel sure that the difference beween the two rows of buttons will become clearer. This reduces the 40 bass buttons into 2 lots of 20.
The 12 rods running at right angles under the pistons and the full length of the bass mechanism
should be identified (A to Bflat). The top counter-bass button on a Stradella bass system will likely be note D (XX). Note D will occur twice in the counter-bass row so it should be fairly easy to select the D bass button/piston from the your pile of 20 because only two will have piston lugs to engage with D rod lever.
(XX) If D is not the top counter-bass then it is liable to be A or G.
I suggest this approach is used with the chord buttons.

 

[Mr Mark]

Interestingly in my search for possible parts/replacements; I came across this listing on ebay which has a very similar problem and the same bass mechanism.

Frontalini Accordion Made in Italy Needs Repair | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Frontalini Accordion Made in Italy Needs Repair at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.ca

The flat O's seem to facilitate the potential for pushing a catorcetti through the tangs of the "O" (press the button too hard), but you cannot push it back . Thus once this has happened you must take the entire thing apart (or risk a kink or break the catorcetti) - (moving forward this is the function of what I am going to call the "O" system). Coupling that with the fact these just seem to float in the hole I don't know how problems could be avoided. It seems really flaky to me...I dunno.

I have one other idea to try, but it well depend upon the fact these bass buttons might not be mixed up afterall. If so Eureka, if not, Kaput!

 

[Dingo40]

So, the average punter should definitely avoid this model of instrument!

 

[boxplayer4000]

Back to the drawing board:
MrMark: Your observation that considerable dismantling would be required if one of the levers (cotorcetti) jumped out of position with its tang or lug: I can’t see why this Frontalini design makes that anymore likely than other systems and it is frustratingly normal that many bass systems require extensive dismantling before repairs can be made. Only two days ago I removed a whole chord section to complete such a task and spent a frustrating couple of hours getting all the buttons back in the right position. This was made harder as the button keyboard/faceplate was not removable (it was glued in position) unlike your Frontalini.
I have a restored Frontalini to hand (Picture Below) which has given no trouble but I think is older than yours. The bass mechanism has some similarities but is not the same. I also realise that the process I described to identify the chord buttons on my entry yesterday is flawed; the ‘offset’ of the buttons do not follow a simple pattern Dim > 7th > minor> major as they are on the left hand.

(I DO think the procedure I suggested to identify the fundamental bass buttons will work).

What is clear from the photo is that the 4 flat, oval plates on the ends of the pistons/buttons follow a regular pattern and it will be easy to see which button is 1,2, 3 or 4 in the ’stack’ of flat/oval plates ie. which is dimin/7th/minor/major. Having a clear identification map of the 12 rods below the buttons as well as levers/cotorcetti must surely help to identify the correct button.

Previous observations about button ‘offset’ in relation to the flat plane of the flat, oval plate will probably still apply. It is noted on on my own Frontalini that the ‘offset’ occurs both in the vertical plane and the lateral plane which might be a help in identification.

 

[Dingo40]

The Frontalinis do have a good sound, though!

And here:

Another with 3/4 reeds:

OK, one more:

 

[boxplayer4000]

Dingo40: Nice videos. Thanks.
My own re-furbished Frontalini is shown below. I already had a recording made with another accordion of three continental waltzes which were popular in the fifties (Tulips from Amsterdam, Under the Bridges of Paris, and Wonderful Copenhagen (from the musical)). I recorded over the accordion track with the Frontalini. The tempo's a bit slow and ponderous but it allows the tuning to be heard which I felt wasn't too bad for an accordion probably over 80 years old.

TulipsFrontalini - 16_04_2022, 10.35.mp3

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Pipemajor]

Definately Scottish Musette. Suits you sir

 

[boxplayer4000]

Back to the drawing board (again):
MrMark: I hope you have not given up on the Frontalini bass re-assembly. As already stated on this thread I own a Frontalini and though it is older and its bass design is different I feel that it is very likely there will be general design similarities. I have had a close look at my own and very soon it became clear that a regular design pattern is used to make the 48 chords of the Stradella system.
The fundamental and counter-basses are not mentioned here because it is probably fairly simple to identify the buttons/pistons simply through length and offset. My Frontalini fundamental basses use all 5 voices (so it’s a bit greedy on air.) It has no couplers.

Note 1: All references to ’top’, ‘bottom’, ‘left’ or ‘right’ are made with the accordion lying on its back with the bass buttons pointing up.
Note 2: The 7th chords, on my accordion, uses 4 reeds rather than the more usual 3 reeds (used by the other three chords).

It helps to plot and map the 2 sets of 12 rods under the bass and chord mechanisms and the palettes as well.
The rod order is the same for bass and chords and has E at the top through in order to E flat at the bottom.
Similarly the palettes layout has E on the left through to E flat on the right.

Each chord button reaches the 6 reeds needed to form the 4 chords of the Stradella system by using what has already been called an oval ring in this thread, on the end of the piston. The oval ring is approx 25mm x 7 mm and has up to 4 lugs which can be short or long.
The note chords 4 oval rings are stacked in regular order. In this case the innermost is the Major, 2nd is Minor, 3rd is the 7th and the outermost is the Dim. The ’stack’ of ovals is about 7 mm high while the distance from the Major chord button on the keyboard to the Dim button is about 29mm. This is a help in itself in identifying buttons.

However the best indication of identification is the disposition of the lugs on the oval rings which engage with rod levers (catorcetti) which can be seen to follow a regular pattern.





(I’m sure there’s no connection but I’m presently enjoying reading the biography of Alan Turing the man credited with cracking
the Enigma code).

 

[cass]

MrMark, have you made any progress on your bass machine? I will be starting reassembly of a frontalini soon and would appreciate any words of wisdom. Thanks.

 

[cass]

Ever worked on one of these? Every where I turn this old accordion is exhibiting some rather poor design elements…from the nut and bolt assembly with no access to the nut for holding down reed blocks to the downright nightmare of a bass mechanism - I will probably never touch one of these again .

This came to me with fallen in bass buttons. Unbeknownst to me somebody somewhere along the way has already taken this apart and mixed up and bent a lot of the rods. This also required removal of the faceplate to get the mechanism out - there was no way those rods were going back in the holes elsehow.

So once you get it all apart you start to realize the problem - due to the way the rods flop loosely without support you literally have to take everything apart just to get the pistons back in the holes - they literally flop every which way. Now, the other end of the piston has the funky flat O shapes with tangs for the catorcetti…so, if you get one of these wrong you have to take the whole thing apart again…so….

Bass reeds have been taped off as this is now a treble instrument only. .

Just curious if anyone has a better (and obvious) way to get the pistons back in the faceplate holes without taken it all apart…not that I would mess with one of these again, but would like to know

Mr. Mark. I have discovered how the bass machine can be reassembled in the cabinet. while staring at the bass side case, I noticed two holes that did not appear to have had any screws or bolts placed through. I haven't drilled any and I don't recall removing any hardware from these holes. Finally noticed that they align with the piston retaining wires. the wires are fed or pulled through the holes, allowing removal or installation of the bass pistons while the machine bass is in place in the cabinet. I am in the process of reassembling my bass machine in place and so far the piston installation is pretty easy. I was also able to identify and re-place two pistons I had mixed up by looking at which valves are opened when the button is pushed. The pipes do have a pattern to them but it could be a nightmare trying to sort them but not impossible. anyway, contact me if you have any questions.

 

[Mr Mark]

I'm sorry to say but I had to give up this venture long ago - time was of the essence not only for me but the customer as well. I'm sure if I spent long enough at it I could have sorted things out - but things were seriously mixed up so that could have been a very long non paying time indeed. Best of luck with yours, it seems boxplayer4000 has some good ideas here!

 

[cass]

Oh well. Sometimes the magic works and sometime it doesn’t.

 

[boxplayer4000]

On the relatively few occasions I've completely dismantled a bass mechanism I've been careful (or tried to be) to store the buttons/pistons in order in home-made cradle. To be confronted with 120 unmarked bass buttons/pistons certainly poses a challenge, one I hope I'll never have to deal with. On reflection the Frontalini mechanism might be one of the better ones to deal with if this happens because their use of the ovals, with varying lugs, is a help in identification. I don't recall another maker having this distinction.

 

[cass]

hey BP4000. I only have run into a few issues with dismantling and reassembling. First, getting the machine out of the cabinet was nerve-wracking. At that time, I didn't know how the retaining wires were placed using some holes covered by the bass strap, so it came out in one piece very slowly and gingerly. Secondly, I built a three layer piston holding frame. with the radical bends in the piston wires, the ovals look like a field of flowers after a severe windstorm. Next iteration will be a slotted frame to hold the pistons by the ovals with more space between the slots. Third, the accordion has 111 bass buttons arranged in a rectangular pattern (haven't seen another like that as I have looked at hundreds of accordion pictures). Consequently, when I was attempting to reassemble, I hadn't realized that the piston groups in the rack weren't in a row as in a conventional pattern. that is, my E and C buttons are 10 from the left/top, but the major and minor buttons are 9 from the left/top and the 7th and dim buttons are 8. so as I tried to place only the C buttons in practice, I got confused pretty quickly and actually mixed up a couple of buttons trying to correct what turned out to be already correct. At this point, I have reattached the bass machine base with the pipes and connecting rods locked in and am reinstalling the pistons. I put a few pistons in, lock them with the wire, then look to see which valves they open. Kind of tedious but I am getting pretty good at it. Your diagram of ovals is very helpful. I intend to replace all the pistons as I figure they are safest there while I put my list of necessary repair parts together. Fortunately, I am not trying to make a living at this. Like plumbing and carpentry, I would starve. thanks for the help. this forum has been a lot of fun.