Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Love those Slavic tunes and those deep bases!
Another example:
Another example:
Last edited:
How to get a chromatic button accordion in the USA?
- Thread starter Jaime_Dergut
- Start date
Walker
🪗
Interesting thoughts @Siegmund... It will surely not have escaped your attention that the 5 voice Beltrami with 32' voice is an instrument of the Stradella tradition of accordion building. However, rather than being a design solely aimed to counter "shortcomings" of the piano keyboard (compared to the bayan range), this PA design really has its roots inspired by the divine. Yes, since at least the early 1940s Dallape of Stradella were creating accordions with a tone designed specifically for liturgical worship, and received it's approval by the Pope! The La Liturgica piano accordion is the original instrument incorporating the 32' voice, and so this accordion design has a tradition dating back at least 80 years. I would politely say the bayan has little to do with the great history of the PA in Stradella. However, the fact still stands - the piano accordion by it's nature allows for many more voicing options than the large CBA - hence a third 'musette' voice, a second piccolo voice or even a quint (2 2/3') voice may easily be added to a piano accordion design to increase the sonic options beyond the limited tonal colours of most bayans.
That said, there is one area where I do agree with you, and that is regarding the wisdom of the 4 octave button accordions - like Galliano's Victoria. I believe the 47 note button instruments are actually ideal musical instruments, unburdened by the bulk, weight and often poor tonal quality of the 64 note CBA, particularly the lowest octave of the treble - indeed a low point for the instrument!
However, not only are the Galliano type CBA's a solid design, but they are rather closely ralated to the piano accordion in so many ways, and that is something I rather like! I would wholeheartedly love to stumble upon a Victoria Ac420V.
Last edited:
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Love those Slavic tunes and those deep bases!
Another example:
She is amazing.
Something I noticed is that, CBA players don't use their right thumb that much, right?
That must be some sort of relief. I heard from senior PA players that they couldn't play as good anymore because of some sort injury that they have on their thumbs that developed after playing for years.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
It depends.
It depends on how many rows of treble buttons you have, flat or stepped button board and how old you are.
In recent years/decades there's been a move towards using the thumb.
Siegmund
Well-known member
Depends a great deal whose method you learn from.
The traditional Russian way, especially on 3-row bayans, was to use the 3 middle fingers for almost everything, and the pinky as needed to avoid awkward hand motions, with the thumb on the underside of the keyboard to anchor the hand in place. "Index finger on the back row, middle finger on the middle row, ring finger on the front row" sums up the the fingering of the beginner exercises in most of the Russian books of the 60s to 90s that I've seen.
When 5-row instruments became more common, more experimentation with the fingers became more common too. I was influenced by Osokin's 1976 book ('Guide for accordion performers with five rows', "посовне для исполнителей на баяне с пятирядной правой клавнатурой") which freely used all 5 fingers, when I first learned my scales. His style is seen in newer books but apparently it was not mainstream at the time he first printed it.
Anzaghi and Galliano, which seem to be more PA books with C-system fingerings tacked on as afterthoughts, use 5 fingers everywhere. Wurthner used the thumb even on 3-row instruments. So I suspect the answer is very close to "if you learned from a Russian, you didn't use your thumb, if you learned from anybody else, you did."
I personally have always used my thumb extensively - my style is basically a 4-finger method, "2 and 3 in the back, 1 and 4 in the front, 5 wherever it makes things easier" I still use the middle three fingers most - but I would say I use the thumb 75% as much as the index or middle finger, while I use the pinky less than half as much.
Given that pianists use their thumbs their whole careers, it seems to me that this sort of injury has to be the result of some bad technique, rather than simply routine use. (But I haven't met one of these players and heard what this injury is.)
It is certainly true that your hand will be a lot happier if you use a light touch and never pound on the keys.
Jaime - listen to some of the youtube tracks by
https://www.youtube.com/@igorzavadsky and
both of whom are Ukraine citizens based in Keiv and who both play bayan
https://www.youtube.com/@igorzavadsky and
both of whom are Ukraine citizens based in Keiv and who both play bayan
If you just want try out the feel, you might try downloading some free apps for the Android tablet. If you own a I-pad, one if our members developed an app for that, too.
This is how I learned, after I bought one from oversees.
Simon
This is how I learned, after I bought one from oversees.
Simon
Chromatic button accordions appear to be somewhat less popular in the US than they are in some other parts of the world. So it may take a bit more effort to find a decent one for sale at a reasonable price and in good nick.
Regarding whether there are any advantages or disadvantages of button versus piano keyboard... there is no definitive answer. When you have a decent size button accordion you have more notes than fit on a standard piano accordion. That's what you get from the more compact layout of the button accordion. I find 41 notes on a standard full size piano accordion very limited. I make a lot of arrangements and struggle with that limitation. The 45 (or 47) notes on the larger piano accordions definitely make a difference, but I am so used to having more notes on the button accordion, and the ability to play larger chords and make larger jumps as well...
Is there a disadvantage to button? I can name one: you cannot play an all-white-key glissando on a button accordion.
And regarding the button accordion versus bayan difference: that's entirely a difference on the inside of the instrument. In terms of playing them there is absolutely no difference. But the bayan has a very specific bass registration (using LM for the lowest 15 notes and LL for higher notes), and it uses large multi-note reed plates on both the treble and bass side. (Some old small bayans do not have the multi-note reed plates.) You can like or hate the difference in sound between a button accordion and a bayan. Many people will not even notice. And as I said, for playing the instrument it makes no difference.
Regarding whether there are any advantages or disadvantages of button versus piano keyboard... there is no definitive answer. When you have a decent size button accordion you have more notes than fit on a standard piano accordion. That's what you get from the more compact layout of the button accordion. I find 41 notes on a standard full size piano accordion very limited. I make a lot of arrangements and struggle with that limitation. The 45 (or 47) notes on the larger piano accordions definitely make a difference, but I am so used to having more notes on the button accordion, and the ability to play larger chords and make larger jumps as well...
Is there a disadvantage to button? I can name one: you cannot play an all-white-key glissando on a button accordion.
And regarding the button accordion versus bayan difference: that's entirely a difference on the inside of the instrument. In terms of playing them there is absolutely no difference. But the bayan has a very specific bass registration (using LM for the lowest 15 notes and LL for higher notes), and it uses large multi-note reed plates on both the treble and bass side. (Some old small bayans do not have the multi-note reed plates.) You can like or hate the difference in sound between a button accordion and a bayan. Many people will not even notice. And as I said, for playing the instrument it makes no difference.
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing. I will definitely take a look.
Most likely that, if I get a button accordion, it will be one of those Bayans made in Ukraine. But we will see.
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Indeed, they are. My guess is that most people were more familiar with the piano layout than the button so manufacturers just built what was convenient to appeal the general public.
I think I can understand what you are saying. Stretching fingers to build tetra or penta chords and making those big jumps on a piano accordion can make things physically more difficult, which is something that the button layout deals with easier. But sure, that mostly applies for complex and classical music arrangements. For every day songs like polkas and rigs both layouts work just fine, I believe.
Indeed, I can imagine you just can't slide your fingers on the buttons like you will do on a piano layout.
Some people say that Bayans sound is like an organ that resonates in the building. I haven't had the chance to hear one yet. A powerful, dry sound.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
and then getting back to the original question that started this thead,
perhaps the simple answer is
"take a road trip this Spring"
if you care to stop in Wash DC along the way, you can spend
a day or two playing this old Mechta Bayan and hear how it
resonates in my Barn, as a first step.. no charge..
then drive to the Philadelphia area where you will be able to see and
try a few, or just go to New Jersey for this Roland that seems to be
begging for a new owner (it has been on CList for a couple months)
the Roland is a good com[promise because it can obviously sound
somewhat like a Bayan (it has a heilikon Bass simulation)
as well as a Chromatic Western accordion
time to take a weeks vacation and take a ride.. get your hands on something so
you can do more than wonder what... whether you end up buying something or not
i just cannot see ordering something from Europe until you first get
some hands on experience
How to get a chromatic button accordion in the USA?
perhaps the simple answer is
"take a road trip this Spring"
Roland Fr7b button accordion баян - musical instruments - by owner -...
ROLAND’S REVOLUTIONARY V-ACCORDION It can be seen in Rutherford NJ, just minutes from Manhattan Made in Japan 100%, everything works, like new. Comes with pedal board/charger. Since it is...
newjersey.craigslist.org
if you care to stop in Wash DC along the way, you can spend
a day or two playing this old Mechta Bayan and hear how it
resonates in my Barn, as a first step.. no charge..
then drive to the Philadelphia area where you will be able to see and
try a few, or just go to New Jersey for this Roland that seems to be
begging for a new owner (it has been on CList for a couple months)
the Roland is a good com[promise because it can obviously sound
somewhat like a Bayan (it has a heilikon Bass simulation)
as well as a Chromatic Western accordion
time to take a weeks vacation and take a ride.. get your hands on something so
you can do more than wonder what... whether you end up buying something or not
i just cannot see ordering something from Europe until you first get
some hands on experience
You can slide quite easily, but you cannot slide in such a way that you hit just the white buttons and avoid the black ones (if they have the usual colors). You can easily do a chromatic glissando though, and also a 2-row glissando.
It is an exaggeration. The sound is different. The deep bass has a more powerful sound (but doesn't go deeper) than on an Italian accordion, and the low notes on the treble side have better response, but the sound differences between different bayans and between different accordions outweigh the differences between bayan and accordion. I happen to have a Russian bayan (AKKO), two Bugari accordions and one Hohner Artiste X S (Italian with just a German name). In my subjective opinion the sound of the bayan and the Bugari accordions is closer than that of the Hohner versus Bugari. I really like how Bugari accordions (with cassotto) sound and the AKKO was an opportunity to buy an acceptable approximation of that sound for much less money than a larger Bugari. The AKKO sound is certainly closer to the Bugari sound than Pigini is compared to Bugari. The strong bass and good low note response is just a bonus.
If this is about the B-system:
This is a very old (pre 1960s?) technique that is severely inferior to the modern 5-finger 5-row technique.
4 fingers over 3 rows - you need to learn 3 hand positions, learn how and when to use them and how and when to switch from one to the other.
You also need to know 3 fingering systems for notes on row 1, 2 and 3. You'll spend half of your life trying to figure out what fingering to use.
Also this technique only works on ancient boxes where the keyboard is attached to the middle of the box (depth-wise). You can't play the thumb-behind-keyboard on modern boxes comfortably: the keyboard is attached to the bottom of the box and putting the thumb behind it will place your right arm and wrist into a highly unnatural position.
5 over 5 - you have one hand position ("second position" in old money) and you only need to know two very similar fingering systems for notes on row 1 and 3. Row 2 can be played with either. And you get a ton of alternative fingerings that come very naturally and always keep your hand in the right shape.
It was also common on C-system. A lot of "french" accordions have register levers under the keyboard instead of switches between keyboard and grille. The registers are then operated using the thumb. (Such accordions also exist in B system.)
Yes, I've got the French-style registers on my 3-voice box - In fact, I'm not sure they are any less convenient than the grille-mounted buttons, even if you play with the thumb over the keyboard.
I'm thinking of fitting chin switches on my new box - all the cool kids seem to have them!
Fitting chin switches is a *lot* easier during accordion construction than doing it afterwards.
Generally it is easier on button accordions because there are prefabricated mechanisms that fit between the top op the keyboard (in playing orientation) and the treble case. On piano accordions there is no room there (as the keyboard goes all the way to the edge) so the chin switches push a rod that goes under the keyboard to a lever (that turns the direction of the motion). It's all done manually and as a result each piano accordion has slightly different distances between the chin switches. I have made chin switch protectors (covers) and they are all different. On button accordions the distances are identical for all accordions using the same mechanism, and I have just one type of protector/cover that works on different accordions (even different brands).
Sergei
Member
i picked a couple of two row accordions in Russia and one is made in Italy. Thinking of switching to a Roland v-accordion...
Disagree. On older 3 rows with the keyboard in the middle, thumb behind is the far more comfortable way to play. Thumb behind also doesn't mean you can never use it, just use it less often. It builds dexterity in the pinky which is a weakness for a lot of chromatic players these days with constant thumb usage. On modern 5 rows; sure. When I played 5 row using the thumb was much more comfortable and natural. But with 3, it's the opposite. Your thumb will feel weird constantly hovering over the keyboard, instead of comfortably tucked behind, ready to come out when you need it.
Maybe it has something to do with some people in (older) America thinking a button accordion was a devilish instrument which had to be banned from being used in public places (like concert halls, bars, restaurants, etc.). Hence the invention of the "finto piano" accordion (a button accordion disguised as a piano accordion with two or three extra rows of buttons.It's probably a historical accident
Here's something about it:
A History of the Accordion in Americana Music
Invented in 1829, the accordion came to North America early on, and as westward expansion took place, was heard in the mountains and bayous….in cities, towns and in the country….in the deserts of t…accordionamericana.com
Probably more about middle class snobbery - pianos were "in" but button accordions were for working class immigrants and folksie bums.
Similar threads
