inside digital accordions

[Deleted member 48]

Starting an odyssee into the world of digital accordions, lets start surfing.
With a click you can find thousands of videos and digital accordions players and promo videos.
Yet I didnt find inside photos or videos checking the inside of digital accordions. There are so many videos of accordion amateurs and professionals opening accordions and showing us reed blocks, actions, accordion parts.

Why not an exploded view of a digital accordion?

Maybe we can start together a fascinating trip inside digital accordions? And also inside accordions with midi?


Roland FR3x - factory vs coaxial loudspeakers sound test


Using Roland V-accordion as midi-controller.mp4

Lets dive into the sea and the world of digital and midi accordions.
You are welcome to post all your videos and photos of inside parts of digital accordions and midi equipped accordions.

They do it for all brands and sorts of accordions, so... why not for digital accordions?
Sounds like fun.

 

[Deleted member 48]

old 2013 video, and starting from 530 inside a Roland accordion production site

Roland Fr-8x : Secret dun accordéon 1

lots of promo talk in the video, and little inside views of the parts and the production, but its a start.
I usually skip the promo peptalk or fastforward it, and start with the technical aspects and inside views.

But one has to look hard...

 

[Deleted member 48]

by the way, do you notice the funny comment (not by me) at the bottom of this video ?

Roland Fr-8x : Secret dun accordéon 1

He starts playing at 100 for one minute, playing a lot of notes with minimal bellows movement... Just take a good look at the bellows movements.
the comment says: is he playing with the bellows completely dead? Is that normal on the 8x?

You see, Im not the only one noticing the emperor has got no clothes on...

Another thing that meets the eye on an official Roland page about digital accordions:
http://www.roland.com/products/fr-7/
it says:
The FR-7/-5 are the first instruments of their type to successfully integrate powerful Physical Behavior Modeling (PBM) technology into a traditional accordion design
and a few lines later:
Because it doesn’t depend on moving parts for sound generation

that sounds a bit contradictory to my ears...

Can someone explain technically in detail (software and hardware parts) how the sound can be influenced if it doesnt depend on moving parts of an accordion?
Usually a traditional accordion player influences sound with bellows pressure, or even some pressure or vibrations on the buttons or keys (if one wants vibratos, ... or other tricks)

Come on guys, the silence is deafening...

 

[acordiansam]

Kinda funny I can get vibrato just like an acoustiic box with my 3x.

I'm afrade to open it. I've opened every other box I've had even an old electravox and vox 4. But they were still acoustic boxes. Just don't want to mess it up. Great topic. I would love to know more also!

 

[Deleted member 48]

Most accordions having pins can be opened very easy and very fast.
Browse the different digital accordion subtypes and... where are the pins to remove?

They could prevent users from opening digital accordions because they could damage the electronics inside, or to have a good look inside...

Be careful with digital accordions when opening. If the bellows are glued or attached firmly, and if there are no pins, you could do damage to a digital accordion.

If someone can find a quick explanation on how to open a digital accordion, please post some info and let us know.
Sometimes when bellows are glued to the case, one can find a way in via the bass side little feet and the bass side plate.

Maybe the digital accordion dealers on this forum can give us some hints on this one?

 

[Deleted member 48]

The amount of promotion for digital accordions (and ... sponsoring) is in sharp contrast to inside technical information (detailed inside views on the parts of these digital accordions, etc)

Here is a passage that has my attention:
http://www.accordions.com/index/squ/archives/0811/roland/history.htm
it reads:
Physical Behaviour Modelling, which does not alter the way essential components, such as the bellows, are used. Air is still pumped by the bellows in a totally authentic way, but activates a high-definition pressure sensor, instead of reeds.
and below it reads on the same page:
As it is a digital instrument, the V-Accordion is naturally open to the world of MIDI, allowing it to be connected to other electronic instruments or to a computer for sharing sounds and data. Many accordionists had long been dreaming of this possibility, but it had previously been extremely complicated and expensive to add a MIDI interface to an acoustic accordion.

Is it really true that previously it had been extremely complicated and expensive to add a MIDI interface to an acoustic accordion ??

http://www.midikits.net/midi_chromatic_button_accordion/midi_chromatic_button_accordion.htm

About sponsoring accordion festivals, always practical to get some visibility of your products
http://www.rolandus.com/company/press_releases/1702
With the growing number of accordion enthusiasts in the U.S. and around the world, competing in this one-of-a-kind event sponsored by Roland gives unique musicians a chance share their music across borders. For more details, please visit http://www.RolandUS.com/V-AccordionFestival .


An interesting question to investigate more deeply:
How to get the best natural bellows movement:
an accoustic accordion with reeds + MIDI?
Or a reedless digital accordion with behaviour modelling programming

And what about comparing prices in these 2 or more options? Is MIDI still so expensive?
How to build in midi kits , and remove them again to have again your accoustic traditional accordion sound.

Surely more photos, videos and technical information is needed to analyse. The oddysey only got started...

 

[Glenn]

An acoustic accordion with midi has no bellows control of midi out. None at all. The bellows controls the acoustic output only. This is the major selling point of a Roland and one of its unique features.

 

[BrandyD]

I play my Roland FR-8x using the bellows just like I did with my acoustic. I've spent most of my life playing the acoustic, always wanted the digitals due to the various sounds that are available but could never afford one. Finally, I'm 57 yrs old now, I bought my first digital this year. I truly love it, for the sounds I can get out of it (the reason I wanted one) - but again, I do use the bellows just like I did on the acoustic. The use of the bellows allow me to put feeling into the songs I play, loud or quiet, accented notes or not, bellows shakes, etc.

I have never taken an accordion apart though, acoustic or digital - I'd be afraid of hurting something inside my precious accordion. I'll leave the taking apart to those who know what they are doing!!! I would love to see the inside of a digital accordion though, just to fulfill curiosity, looking forward to people sharing their pics and videos!

Brandy

 

[Deleted member 48]

Thanks for the input of info, and for possible new angles to look at the topic of digital accordions and midi.

My intention here isnt really to compare brands, but trying to understand the technology of these musical instruments.

I want to say, please dont open your digital accordions, if you are not sure how to open them safely. I wouldnt want you to do damage, just because me and some others want to have a look at inside pictures or videos.
Maybe try surfing the web for pics and videos first.

This is indeed interesting to research: an acoustic accordion with midi has no bellows control of midi out. The bellows controls the acoustic output only.

Is Roland the only company having these unique featurs of bellows controle in and out? I really dont know.
The Swiss schwyzerörgeli and accordion makers also have lots of midi and digital diatonic and chromatic accordions in their product range.
http://www.schwyzerorgeln.ch/

Eg here is the Digital Akkordeon DA-7
http://www.schwyzerorgeln.ch/da-7.html

downpage you can also find 2 brochures pdf in English:

Brochure Digital Accordion DA-7 English (PDF 2.7 MB)
Instruction Manual Digital Accordion DA-7 English (PDF 2.7 MB)

I have a busy time this and next weeks, and havent read these documents yet. I have to do a lot of reading about digital accordions and midi in the next weeks/months. I think it will be hard to get to the core of this technology, but who knows what can be surfaced.

(I want to make this clear: I am not an accordion dealer. I dont have any commercial ties or links with the accordion industry. Im not even an accordion professional. My professional work has nothing to do with music or music instruments. Im just an accordion amateur for 25 years, interested in the past, present and future of accordions)

A Steirisch Harmonika flyer about the technology
http://www.schwyzerorgeln.ch/Media/Daten/Flyer Ludwig2.pdf

PS: it helps when documents, pdfs, videos, and especially technical detailed information is added in your replies.

 

[Glenn]

The Schweizerorgeln looks like a nice instrument iIt's a bit lighter than the FR8X and has on its site bellows transducer to interpret the bellows movement (although the YouTube video has the player with static bellows ). The price however is quite a bit higher than Roland's flagship model.

 

[Deleted member 48]

In trying to learn more about midi and digital accordions, we try to find out the past, the present and the future.

https://www.google.be/patents/US419...ved=0CBsQ6AEwAGoVChMI9PaihNq5xwIVxFcUCh2JJwDe
Combined electronic-pneumatic musical instrument
US 4196650 A

https://www.google.be/patents/US6946594
Method for reproducing the sound of an accordion electronically
US 6946594 B2
Roland Europe S.P.A.

These are some online documents I would like to study, but it will take a whole lot of time:

US6946594 * 26 april 2002 20 sept 2005 Roland Europe S.P.A. Method for reproducing the sound of an accordion electronically
DE19507863A1 * 8 maart 1995 19 sept 1996 Koppold Siegfried Music instrument with converter to give electronic signal from mechanical process
EP1752966A2 * 8 aug 2006 14 feb 2007 Roland Corporation Electronic accordion
WO2001043116A1 * 1 dec 2000 14 juni 2001 Antakamatics Inc Harmonica having reed vibration conversion capability and associated retrofitting method

We first have to go down to the bottom of the technical aspects, and even the programming and formal, math aspects.
Not a fun thing to do, but necessary to analyse it in order to get a better understanding.

This one is on behaviour modeling in musical instruments:
https://www.google.be/patents/US200...ved=0CBsQ6AEwAGoVChMIi6OLzty5xwIVBOkUCh0GIwjG
Musical system for signal processing and stimulus of multiple vibrating elements
US 20020056358 A1

https://www.google.be/patents/US885...ved=0CC4Q6AEwAmoVChMI9KDtn925xwIVgbsUCh3nAw0w
Multi-channel signal processing for multi-channel musical instruments
US 8859876 B2

2. Background
There has been considerable advancement in music technology in the last several decades, but recent innovations driven by mass-market forces have narrowed the range of possibilities for commercially available instruments and the ways in which new recorded and performed music are being explored. Audio samples of diverse instruments, advanced signal processing power, improved fidelity, the MIDI control interface, sequencers, and music workstations are important assets but, together with the ways synthesizers, signal processing systems, and instrument controllers have come to be designed, the channel of innovation is focused on a relatively narrow conceptual range that will consume as much rework and refinement energy as can be allotted. A few modern outlier innovations have appeared, such as the Roland COSM signal processing methods, Yahama VL1 model-based synthesis methods, and Buchlas and Starr Switch alternative MIDI controllers, but due to the focused drive of the mainstream these exceptions are largely orphaned in their application.

What is needed is some reach into the souls (rather than make samples) of deep non-Western and Western instruments, a recasting of the now institutionalized signal processing chains, adaptations of new classes of applicable physical phenomenon, extensions as to the types and forms of meaningful human control, and, in the context of performance, a deeper integration of visual and audio environments.


so much easier to squeeze an acoustic box, less reading and fysics/math to do...
but well give it a try

 

[Deleted member 48]

System and methods for changing a musical performance , Roland Europe S.P.A.
US 7030312 B2
https://www.google.com/patents/US70...ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIj-nnkd-5xwIVQaAUCh0n4wjL
summary says:
MIDI data representing a musical performance may be altered to substitute one instrument for another, change the parameters applicable to individual instruments, and change the genre of a piece by collectively implementing predetermined changes of instruments and instrument parameters. The changes may be made in an automated real time fashion so that desired changes can be implemented during performance.

 

[Deleted member 48]

https://www.google.com/patents/US5119711
Midi file translation
US 5119711 A

A system and method for translating MIDI files is used with a sequencer and synthesizer. When a MIDI file is imported into a system, the file is scanned and voice assignment information extracted. This information is stored in a converted file. If desired, the extracted information can be stored using MIDI system exclusives. This allows either any original program change information, or the extracted information, to be used during a performance of the converted MIDI file.

 

[Deleted member 48]

I think this will be one of the last post for today, well have a great sunny weekend over here.
Ill work on this topic later.

But this one might also be interesting to read and study:
Tactile, visual, and array controllers for real-time control of music signal processing, mixing, video, and lighting
US 6570078 B2
http://www.google.com/patents/US6570078
A system and method for real-time controlling of signal processors, synthesizers, musical instruments, MIDI processors, lighting, video, and special effects in performance, recording, and composition environments using images derived from tactile sensors, pressure sensor arrays, optical transducer arrays, chemical sensor arrays, body sensor arrays, and numerical computation. The invention provides for pressure sensor arrays and body sensor arrays as tactile control interfaces, for video cameras and light sensor arrays as optical transducers, for chemical sensor arrays, and for other numerical image generation from computer processing or numeric simulation. Tactile transducers may be put on instrument keys of conventional instruments, be attached to existing instruments, or be used to create entirely new instrument or controller configurations. Chemical sensor arrays and for other numerical image generation from computer processing or numeric simulation can be used to monitor or simulate natural physical phenomenon such as self-organizing process behavior or environmental conditions. Arrays of scalar or vector values are processed to extract pattern boundaries, geometric properties of pixels within the pattern boundaries (geometric center, weighted moments, etc.), and higher-level derived information (senses of rotation, segmented regions, pattern classification, syntax, grammars, sequences, etc.) which are used to create control signals for external audio, visual, and control equipment or algorithms. The invention also provides for MIDI and non-MIDI control signals.



Interesting because its especially the bellows control and the tactile aspects of buttons/keys control we want to have a closer look at in digital and midi accordions.

Lots of work on the bench coming weeks/months

 

[Deleted member 48]

last one before the weekend :

https://www.google.be/patents/US781...ved=0CC4Q6AEwAmoVChMIxIn8juW5xwIVyVYUCh1EJgR7
Electronic musical instruments
US 7812242 B2 Roland Corporation

shows a list with historic patents on sampling music
Could be an important document, one of the more recent (2010 patent)

summary:
Various embodiments of the present invention are directed to providing a musical tone control device for carrying out appropriate control in user-performed operations. A pitch parameter value PB set by a pitch bend wheel may be loaded and a determination may be made whether the pitch parameter value PB is within a specified range. If the pitch parameter value PB is within the specified range, a time t may advance by 1, and a determination may be made whether the time t has reached t1. If the time t has reached t1, an amplitude value from a low frequency oscillator (LFO) table corresponding to the time t may be read out from the LFO table. The vibrato value VI may be calculated by multiplying the amplitude value and the vibrato depth. The pitch parameter value PB and the vibrato value VI may be added and transmitted to the sound source.


I suppose digital accordion players also have to be engineers to understand their instruments...

 

[Ganza]

A question, not to be negative, but why do many midi or electronic accordions sound bad? Is it the fact that the player has just chosen a cheesy sound? Or is it the higher you pay, the better it sounds?
Why do, say, electronic organs and electronic rhodes pianos sound so incredible? Is it because theyre top of the line? Or do they utilise different technology to a midi/electronic accordion?

 

[ChrisH]

A question, not to be negative, but why do many midi or electronic accordions sound bad?

One reason could be the limitations of the internal speaker systems. I have a Roland FR-1x which sounds terrific through a PA system or with decent headphones, but its not at all impressive as a standalone instrument. I normally prefer my playing my accoustic boxes, but the Roland is great when I need amplification, or for late night practice.

Chris

 

[acordiansam]

Midi its self has no sound its just an information link that all the sound and lighting Co's use. The sound depends on the music box you plug it into. There is a lot more to it than that but in a nut shell.

 

[Deleted member 48]

Maybe we can collect some more documents and info on digital accordions and midi


“Physical Behavior Modeling (PBM)
At the heart of the FR-7 is Rolands new, proprietary PBM (Physical Behavior Modeling) sound engine and sound modeling technologies. Physical Behavior Modeling uses complex algorithms (as opposed to sampled sounds) to accurately model an acoustic accordions sound characteristics. The result is a faithful recreation of the actual physical behavior and expressive nuances of an acoustic instrument. “
http://www.rolandmusik.ch/product_print03.asp?pID=210&c=211026

“Roland digital accordions do not offer exactly the same playing experience as an acoustic accordion, however. An accordion player who has played for many years will notice how it feels somehow different. This is because the things that determine the sounds produced in a traditional acoustic accordion no longer apply to a digital accordion.
The bellows movement of Roland digital accordions offer more stability and consistency. To put it in simpler terms, you don’t have to work so hard to produce subtle sounds. This will probably feel strange at first to the accomplished player, but it doesn’t take long to get used to. It allows a much greater control of playing skill, a positive thing that traditional acoustic accordions simply don’t have.”
http://www.howtoplayaccordionblog.com/accordion/roland-digital-accordions-music-of-the-future




PBM (Physical Behaviour Modeling) or Dynamic Bellows Modeling systems, is a topic we should analyse in depth

Some videos rather show a DBS ( “dead bellows syndrome” ) or CBS ( coma bellows syndrome )…

Ludovic Beier shows in the first link that its possible to play the digital accordion, placed on the ground, with bellows completely inactive.
Other videos showing minimal bellows movement and piano/forte nuances...



Ludovic Beier Looping on the Roland FR-8x V-Accordion


João Barradas - Intro (Accordion Synth)


Roland V-Accordion FR-7 XBBK - By GearTestUa


Wiązanka melodii włoskich - cover by Antoniusz - akordeon Roland FR-3x cz.4 accordion


ROLAND Oberkrainer Wettbewerb, Dejan Arcet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXAuLwRqW74
Démo CAVAGNOLO Partie 2: DIGIT Orchestra - Accordéons Numériques

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACjcxw6C9zU
FR-1X Classic Sounds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBLu7rd7x2Y
Animation dansante avec laccordéon Digital Maestro et larrangeur BK7m


The V in V accordions , a virtual reality ?
Are the bellows movements in digital accordions a virtual reality?
How much exactly is the influence on bellows movements on sound?

A lof of questions...

 

[Matt Butcher]

It is possible to make a Roland touch sensitive in terms of dynamics like a normal keyboard without bellows, I.e.with dynamics responding to the velocity of touch. It's an option within the menus. It is also possible to do the same with some midi systems, I have seen John Romero shut the bellows and play Cavatina with an acoustic guitar sound on his midi accordion (not a Roland) with touch sensitivity i.e. with dynamics responding to the velocity of the touch. It would have been a party trick except that it sounded excellent.

But if you are arguing that the bellows movements on a Roland do not affect the dynamics at all, then why do people who play Rolands find that they do? I can post a link to my terrible recordings to show that they do. I promise you that the variations in volume were achieved by using the bellows, not with a foot pedal or by changing the levels in "post production"....