Congrats on your sucess Marty! Hope it works out well for you. Got any pictures?
Interested in buying a Chromatic button bayan
- Thread starter Jaime_Dergut
- Start date
Tcabot, that’s interesting. Their website specifically stated it was a ”Tula Rubin 6”, and down in the fine print for that particular instrument that it was “Made in Tula, Russia”, and “Tula musical instruments have high quality. Tula bayans are considered to be the best bayans ever made in Russia.” I’m sure they just didn’t know better (it seemed from emailing them that there were several basic things about accordions they just didn’t know) and that it was an honest mistake. But at any rate my impression was as you said, that it was a “student-level converter workhorse”, which was all I wanted for now.
Siegmund, cool—I saw your old post about your town’s accordion shindig and thought that would be fun to go to next time. (I’m north of Spokane.) But how did you learn buttons—on your own, from a book(s), or did someone show you (in MT!)?
Learning to play buttons really is like learning all over again. (I’m not complaining, it’s what I expected.) My right hand is just now starting to make more intuitive sense, where playing a simple melody slowly I can actually hit the next correct note most of the time. A feel for somewhat decent fingering is also just starting to happen, although I think some instruction on that would be very helpful. And I haven’t really attempted much to play cords yet. It seems like that is when good fingering will really become important. (Anxious to see what that book I ordered says.)
I’m starting to get the hang of the free bass, learning the three scales while keeping adjacent fingers out of the way (since the buttons are close together compared to the right hand), using the correct finger for the correct column and not losing track of where I’m at. For now it seems simpler to stay away from the 4th, duplicate column. I can also now somewhat pick out the next correct note in a song’s bass line, although playing both hands together is still beyond me at this point.
This bayan is deeper (thicker) than my PA, so that the back corner of the left side contacts my arm closer to my elbow. I’m not a big guy, so this makes it harder to extend the bellows as far as my PA. I think the bigger bass reeds also use more air, so that I run out of bellows travel sooner. Maybe that’s why I see that nicer bayans have 19 or even 20 bellows pleats. Well, Soviet students back in the day learned to manage, so I should also be able to. In the same vein, while I see that 4 and 5 right-hand rows would be useful, after seeing Yurik Kazakov on YouTube play Bach with only 3 rows I figured as a beginner I should be able to get by for at least a while. I plan to just deal with all of this for now—after all, I only wanted a cheap way to check out buttons and free bass, and to gain enough proficiency to see how I liked it. Then if I want I’ll spring for all the bells and whistles.
The reason I don’t initially like the stepped button columns on the left side is that it puts the outside, diminished buttons at just such an angle—along with having this outside column slightly further away from the edge—to make it hard for my thumb to fully push the buttons down. I guess I’ll have to bite the bullet and start using my index finger instead. It’s just not as convenient.
And for one particular Stradella cord, using the index finger seems fairly impossible since the diminished column is positioned one row/key down from the “Italian” position. This occurs when I want to use — as an example — the “F” diminished button (D, F, Ab) with the “C” root bass. Since that “F” dim is now effectively in the Italian “Bb” dim position, I must now reach under my hand with that index finger, a much more difficult proposition, whereas when using the thumb reaching that button was no problem.
I see now why the newer bayans have an extension of the backside, behind the buttonboard—it must be to stabilize that right half from tipping to the right during bellows compression, I suppose because now with 5 columns (rows) even the Russians began playing with their thumbs, so then that thumb wasn’t available to keep the bayan pushed to the left. I noticed on YouTube that Kazakov didn’t even have a left strap since apparently his right thumb handled that job. I’ll just need to get used to playing mostly “the old Russian way” for now.
I’m at the learning stage where I can see something is noticeably improved (even if only slightly) at the end of every practice, which makes it exciting. BTW, at this point it seems that her name has become Misha.
Siegmund, cool—I saw your old post about your town’s accordion shindig and thought that would be fun to go to next time. (I’m north of Spokane.) But how did you learn buttons—on your own, from a book(s), or did someone show you (in MT!)?
Learning to play buttons really is like learning all over again. (I’m not complaining, it’s what I expected.) My right hand is just now starting to make more intuitive sense, where playing a simple melody slowly I can actually hit the next correct note most of the time. A feel for somewhat decent fingering is also just starting to happen, although I think some instruction on that would be very helpful. And I haven’t really attempted much to play cords yet. It seems like that is when good fingering will really become important. (Anxious to see what that book I ordered says.)
I’m starting to get the hang of the free bass, learning the three scales while keeping adjacent fingers out of the way (since the buttons are close together compared to the right hand), using the correct finger for the correct column and not losing track of where I’m at. For now it seems simpler to stay away from the 4th, duplicate column. I can also now somewhat pick out the next correct note in a song’s bass line, although playing both hands together is still beyond me at this point.
This bayan is deeper (thicker) than my PA, so that the back corner of the left side contacts my arm closer to my elbow. I’m not a big guy, so this makes it harder to extend the bellows as far as my PA. I think the bigger bass reeds also use more air, so that I run out of bellows travel sooner. Maybe that’s why I see that nicer bayans have 19 or even 20 bellows pleats. Well, Soviet students back in the day learned to manage, so I should also be able to. In the same vein, while I see that 4 and 5 right-hand rows would be useful, after seeing Yurik Kazakov on YouTube play Bach with only 3 rows I figured as a beginner I should be able to get by for at least a while. I plan to just deal with all of this for now—after all, I only wanted a cheap way to check out buttons and free bass, and to gain enough proficiency to see how I liked it. Then if I want I’ll spring for all the bells and whistles.
The reason I don’t initially like the stepped button columns on the left side is that it puts the outside, diminished buttons at just such an angle—along with having this outside column slightly further away from the edge—to make it hard for my thumb to fully push the buttons down. I guess I’ll have to bite the bullet and start using my index finger instead. It’s just not as convenient.
And for one particular Stradella cord, using the index finger seems fairly impossible since the diminished column is positioned one row/key down from the “Italian” position. This occurs when I want to use — as an example — the “F” diminished button (D, F, Ab) with the “C” root bass. Since that “F” dim is now effectively in the Italian “Bb” dim position, I must now reach under my hand with that index finger, a much more difficult proposition, whereas when using the thumb reaching that button was no problem.
I see now why the newer bayans have an extension of the backside, behind the buttonboard—it must be to stabilize that right half from tipping to the right during bellows compression, I suppose because now with 5 columns (rows) even the Russians began playing with their thumbs, so then that thumb wasn’t available to keep the bayan pushed to the left. I noticed on YouTube that Kazakov didn’t even have a left strap since apparently his right thumb handled that job. I’ll just need to get used to playing mostly “the old Russian way” for now.
I’m at the learning stage where I can see something is noticeably improved (even if only slightly) at the end of every practice, which makes it exciting. BTW, at this point it seems that her name has become Misha.
Siegmund
Well-known member
Mostly on my own, with some fingering ideas lifted from the more recent Russian books (the old books are for 3-row instruments.) I worked through a good portion of Anzaghi's C-system book, playing the same exercises but with my own fingerings for B system. I changed my mind several times along the way, but didn't do that terrible of a job at fingering as a beginner. I do finger more like a violinist than a pianist: I repeat a 4-finger pattern a fifth higher, then change to a different 4-finger pattern, rather than alternating 3- and 4-finger segments when I play scales.
There actually are quite a lot of C system players in Montana, quite possibly more than in WA. (I didn't know that when I more-or-less-randomly opted for the B system for my first instrument.)
I've never bought anything from the shop, so don't want to bad mouth them, but I see their ads popping up on etsy all the time, and sometimes on ebay, and there's lots of errors. I've seen:
Non-converter instrument listed as converter;
3-voice instrument listed as 4;
Single cassotto instrument listed as double cassotto;
An extra zero added to the price sticker, presumably in error.
They present themselves as professional bayan repairers, and the errors are always towards the more expensive side. I've never seen them accidentally mis-list an item that would result in lower perceived value.
The good news for you are that Kirov bass reeds are actually considered to be superior to Tula, as far as machine-made reeds go.
Regardless of the shop's ethics. What matters is that you got a better box than 90% of what that shop sells.
Kazakov was not a mere mortal - he was an exceptionally gifted genius, who has invested years of hard work into developing his talent.
I've started on a 3-row B-griff for a few months and then, thankfully, had a go at a 5-row box and realised the differences.
There's 3 "schools":
- 4 fingers over 3 rows
- 5 fingers over 3 rows
(Anything with 4 rows follows the 3 row principles)
- 5 fingers over 5 rows.
The latter uses completely different fingerings & approach compared to the first two, and is a lot (say, 10 times) easier to learn & use.
Learning to play well over 3 rows is very difficult and especially difficult without a teacher, while 5-rows just play themselves as far as fingering choice goes.
Are you using 4 or 5 finger approach for your 3 rows? I should still have some old learning material & etude books somewhere on my drive, at least for the 4-finger technique, (in russian, but at least you can see the suggested fingerings written on the score). Albeit, if you find that you stick to it, I advise getting a 5-row box as soon as you can.
Not sure how to put this...
Misha is a boy's name. Short version of Mikhail (aka Michael), and sounds similar to "Little Bear".
PS
But since Rubin's converter bass machine is built as one unit, I can't even picture how this mis-alignment could have accidentally occurred for just one row.
Very strange.
Is the free bass row shifted too?
Not sure if this is intentional... Don't think I've ever heard of any differences between bayan and Italian layouts.
But since Rubin's converter bass machine is built as one unit, I can't even picture how this mis-alignment could have accidentally occurred for just one row.
Very strange.
Is the free bass row shifted too?
Sorry to take so long to post a reply. I’m commonly too busy during the week to go online, and if the weekend has anything special going on it’s hard to get online then either, let alone take time to write a post. In a couple months we hope to get settled into our new place and have more time, also for practicing.
Siegmund, okay that’s probably what I’ll do too — I have Friedrich Lips’ book “The Art of Bayan Playing” ordered, is that one of your books? It was originally published in Russian (I think in the 90s), but now it’s available in English. And would you recommend Anzaghi’s C book as still useful for a B player?
I always end up adapting everything at least somewhat, maybe somewhat like you did. I’ve seen 3 teachers now (one local, 2 at the Leavenworth Celebration), and all basically said I came up with a new way to play the bass side (a little too hard to believe) and they each asked me to play more songs while they took phone videos. They never said anything negative, but all told me to keep going with it. (I expected them to at least criticize my thumb use but none ever did, maybe because it’s obvious it would be more difficult—and sometimes impossible— to make some of the moves and play some button combinations.) In the several places I’ve played publicly so far, people always say afterwards they had no idea “accordions could do that” — which isn’t saying much given most people’s ignorant opinion of accordions.
Yes, I decided it didn’t much matter which system, and was leaning toward the C-system because it seemed more available on this side of the world, until two people convinced me that for free bass the Russian-style would suit my purposes better. And I saw that this used basic converter bayan was fairly cheap, and was curious to check out the big bass sound everyone talks about.
tcabot, at least I’m glad this one turned out to be in the condition I expected. A friend opened it up and said it had all new leathers. That’s good to know about the reeds and I can see that 4-5 right-hand columns would be really good. Once I get some basic proficiency I do want to find the money to move on to 5 rows, maybe an Italian B-system LMMH with a few register—and chin—switches. But if I waited until I could afford what I’d really like it might be awhile, and at least for now I can start learning the free bass and work on a basic fluency with buttons. I haven’t spent enough time yet to have locked into any particular fingering. So far I seem to use mostly 4 fingers, with occasional thumb use. But I think that’s because mostly my thumb needs to hold the bayan’s right side to the left, to keep it from tipping to the right during bellows compression. I understand now why modern CBAs have a backside extension behind the button board where the PA keyboard is, to accomplish that.
And I’d be really interested in any material on playing techniques for the B system. Do you happen to know where you got those from? I’m still waiting for that Lips’ bayan book I ordered—I’m especially interested to find what it says about fingering.
Thanks for the name info. I just took that name from a short list of female names online, but now I notice it says Misha is unisex. I’d prefer a more feminine name and I don’t think she’d mind if I changed it, but now I want to take a little time to pick one. I see lots of nice ones. Thanks for the heads up.
Paul D. posted about the bayan diminished buttons being positioned one row down from the Italian position and now that I have it, I see he was right. It’s not a problem except in that one instance, and only then because at least on this bayan it’s a bit difficult with my hand to use the thumb. Not sure why they’re positioned like that, and the free bass is not changed any.
It’s also interesting that there’s no air button (not even in place of the top diminished—or any other—button) and of course no bellows clasps as I knew would be the case. Those aren’t really problems, just interesting differences and things to get used to. And I think I’ll leave it like that, I don’t want to put on clasps and mess with its “authenticity”.
Siegmund, okay that’s probably what I’ll do too — I have Friedrich Lips’ book “The Art of Bayan Playing” ordered, is that one of your books? It was originally published in Russian (I think in the 90s), but now it’s available in English. And would you recommend Anzaghi’s C book as still useful for a B player?
I always end up adapting everything at least somewhat, maybe somewhat like you did. I’ve seen 3 teachers now (one local, 2 at the Leavenworth Celebration), and all basically said I came up with a new way to play the bass side (a little too hard to believe) and they each asked me to play more songs while they took phone videos. They never said anything negative, but all told me to keep going with it. (I expected them to at least criticize my thumb use but none ever did, maybe because it’s obvious it would be more difficult—and sometimes impossible— to make some of the moves and play some button combinations.) In the several places I’ve played publicly so far, people always say afterwards they had no idea “accordions could do that” — which isn’t saying much given most people’s ignorant opinion of accordions.
Yes, I decided it didn’t much matter which system, and was leaning toward the C-system because it seemed more available on this side of the world, until two people convinced me that for free bass the Russian-style would suit my purposes better. And I saw that this used basic converter bayan was fairly cheap, and was curious to check out the big bass sound everyone talks about.
tcabot, at least I’m glad this one turned out to be in the condition I expected. A friend opened it up and said it had all new leathers. That’s good to know about the reeds and I can see that 4-5 right-hand columns would be really good. Once I get some basic proficiency I do want to find the money to move on to 5 rows, maybe an Italian B-system LMMH with a few register—and chin—switches. But if I waited until I could afford what I’d really like it might be awhile, and at least for now I can start learning the free bass and work on a basic fluency with buttons. I haven’t spent enough time yet to have locked into any particular fingering. So far I seem to use mostly 4 fingers, with occasional thumb use. But I think that’s because mostly my thumb needs to hold the bayan’s right side to the left, to keep it from tipping to the right during bellows compression. I understand now why modern CBAs have a backside extension behind the button board where the PA keyboard is, to accomplish that.
And I’d be really interested in any material on playing techniques for the B system. Do you happen to know where you got those from? I’m still waiting for that Lips’ bayan book I ordered—I’m especially interested to find what it says about fingering.
Thanks for the name info. I just took that name from a short list of female names online, but now I notice it says Misha is unisex. I’d prefer a more feminine name and I don’t think she’d mind if I changed it, but now I want to take a little time to pick one. I see lots of nice ones. Thanks for the heads up.
Paul D. posted about the bayan diminished buttons being positioned one row down from the Italian position and now that I have it, I see he was right. It’s not a problem except in that one instance, and only then because at least on this bayan it’s a bit difficult with my hand to use the thumb. Not sure why they’re positioned like that, and the free bass is not changed any.
It’s also interesting that there’s no air button (not even in place of the top diminished—or any other—button) and of course no bellows clasps as I knew would be the case. Those aren’t really problems, just interesting differences and things to get used to. And I think I’ll leave it like that, I don’t want to put on clasps and mess with its “authenticity”.
Sounds like you desperately need to adjust your shoulder straps, but it's a bit odd that the teachers haven't done that for you.
Right hand should not be holding the accordion in place. It is either hanging freely over the keyboard, or registering (very lightly) against the back or the edge of the keyboard, if you are using the 4-finger technique.Please correct me if I'm wrong, everybody.
Siegmund
Well-known member
The Friedrich Lips book is interesting reading, but it is very advanced --- a lot about artistic interpretation, a lot about dynamics and phrasing and breathing as you play and choosing good bellows-changes that fit with the music, some specific tips about bellow shakes, some specific tips about choosing registers. It has only a little bit about basic fingering principles. (It was among the first books I got, too, because there were no others in English, and very few others in German, my 2nd-best language.) It will teach you a lot about music in general but be almost no help to you with the beginner phase of learning.
I think whatever book you use, you'll be very much on your own for fingerings; all the C-system books are for 4 or 5 rows, and so are most of the Russian B-system books of the last several decades. There are lots of 3-row B-system books in Russian, from the 70s and before, that basically teach 3 fingers (index in the back, middle in the middle, ring finger in the front), but I think that style is widely seen as out of date now.
What I liked about Anzaghi was that it had a nice progression of exercises, coordinating the two hands while staying in what pianists call the 5-finger position, then gradually expanding to an octave range, to 3 chords instead of 2 in the left hand, etc. A lot of books give a bunch of beginner exercises then sorta say "hey, go learn some tunes, have fun." In your case, books that start with 5-finger exercises will maybe not adapt to the 3-row system as well as you'd like; with 3 rows and 4 fingers you're going to have to move your hand in order to play the "easy" exercises that were designed to require no hand position changes.
Maybe you are already past that stage, just from your self study already.
In other news, I wonder if we crossed paths in Leavenworth (when your instrument wasn't out): I go there every year, but saw no other B-players all week this year. In 2022 several B players attended to see the Teleshevs.
I think whatever book you use, you'll be very much on your own for fingerings; all the C-system books are for 4 or 5 rows, and so are most of the Russian B-system books of the last several decades. There are lots of 3-row B-system books in Russian, from the 70s and before, that basically teach 3 fingers (index in the back, middle in the middle, ring finger in the front), but I think that style is widely seen as out of date now.
What I liked about Anzaghi was that it had a nice progression of exercises, coordinating the two hands while staying in what pianists call the 5-finger position, then gradually expanding to an octave range, to 3 chords instead of 2 in the left hand, etc. A lot of books give a bunch of beginner exercises then sorta say "hey, go learn some tunes, have fun." In your case, books that start with 5-finger exercises will maybe not adapt to the 3-row system as well as you'd like; with 3 rows and 4 fingers you're going to have to move your hand in order to play the "easy" exercises that were designed to require no hand position changes.
Maybe you are already past that stage, just from your self study already.
In other news, I wonder if we crossed paths in Leavenworth (when your instrument wasn't out): I go there every year, but saw no other B-players all week this year. In 2022 several B players attended to see the Teleshevs.
donn
Prolific poster
It isn't really misaligned at all - from here it looks like the regular 3+3 bass layout we usually call "French." What Marty refers to here as the diminished for F, is in fact the dominant 7 for Bb -- without the root. So it's in the right column after all, while if necessary serving also as a diminished for F.
What I think is usually more of an interesting dilemma is the placement of the 3rd bass note row. That row would be the minor third to the 1st row, but following the regular stradella bass note geometry, that minor interval will turn up in the next column - and often that is indeed where one finds, as in my accordion made in France. Or (I'm told) it may also be placed in the same column, along with the 2nd row major third. I think it's really easier the way I have it - because the column diagonal takes the 3rd row rather far away, the 3rd button for the next row is more accessible.
Ed S
Member
I just (March 2024) got this response from Black Diamond:
I looked at a used one yesterday. The treble registers were iffy - sometimes a single-reed register got some of the other, sometimes the MM was very unbalanced. I've no idea whether this reflects an intrinsic problem or just a problem for that particular box.
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Advice: don't buy the old soviet instruments.
They are often uncomfortable, not responsive and just not worth the trouble. Most of those who buy them are people from former soviet states who already learned how to play them when they were kids. Younger musicians, however, avoid them like the plague and often prefer to learn with borrowed top end instruments with 5 rows.
It is all about comfort. If you like suffering, go for the old school bayans. If you want to enjoy learning, save money for a decent 5 row instruments, preferably the Italian/German ones or modern bayans.
They are often uncomfortable, not responsive and just not worth the trouble. Most of those who buy them are people from former soviet states who already learned how to play them when they were kids. Younger musicians, however, avoid them like the plague and often prefer to learn with borrowed top end instruments with 5 rows.
It is all about comfort. If you like suffering, go for the old school bayans. If you want to enjoy learning, save money for a decent 5 row instruments, preferably the Italian/German ones or modern bayans.
This chap seems to manage quite well on only 3 rows of a CBA - even to the point of blanking off the 4th and 5th. rows on some of his instruments:
But generally speaking starting out on a 5 or 6 row box does have advantages.
You presume too much when you condemn all Soviet era bayans though; there were quite a number of makers of quality instruments in Russia and Ukraine, but only the government approved artists had access to them.
It is likely that the same applies to Chinese manufactured ones.
In Russia, Jupiter is still producing high end conservatory quality instruments.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Alf loves his refurbished vintage "finto piano " accordions which, in reality, are actually CBAs disguised to mimic the appearance of PAs (from the auditorium) so CBA players wouldn't be put to the trouble of transitioning to PAs during a sudden demand for PA players ( the latest thing) sometime in pre- middle 20th century.
Probably, they are all three-row button CBAs, with an additional layer of dummy PA-like keys: the things we do for fashion!
I really like Alf's music!
Thanks for sharing!
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Alf loves his refurbished vintage "finto piano " accordions which, in reality, are actually CBAs disguised to mimic the appearance of PAs (from the auditorium) so CBA players wouldn't be put to the trouble of transitioning to PAs during a sudden demand for PA players ( the latest thing) sometime in pre- middle 20th century.
Probably, they are all three-row button CBAs, with an additional layer of dummy PA-like keys: the things we do for fashion!
I really like Alf's music!
Thanks for sharing!
It is quite worthwhile watching him just for the different refubished accordions he has used over decades.
Some seem to have a plate with his name covering what would be 4th and 5th row on a few of them.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
That's where the dummy treble keys would have been.
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Is not presumption alone but personal experience and discussion with other accordionists. Soviet instruments are made to be cheap and uncomfortable to play.
I don't know any modern makers in Ukraine. Jupiter is a top end bayan maker, and their instruments cost around 10 000$. Professional modern musicians always use 5 rows layouts. There might have been some exceptions, but these are exceptional individuals.
