Irregular/unequal musette?

[AJonsson]

I'm wondering when it comes to musette voicing if the offsets of the upper/lower reed banks are always, or should be, consistent (ie. +6, -12 cents for all notes in the octave)? I've been interested in unequal temperaments and have an idea for an extended irregular temperament, however I'm not sure if this scheme will pass mustard due to it not being conventional... therefore any thoughts are appreciated!

The offsets from equal temperament for the three reed banks (M-, MØ, M+) would be as follows:

Notes (circle of 5ths)	M-	MØ	M+
F	-16​	6​	8​
C	-14​	6​	10​
G	-12​	4​	12​
D	-10​	2​	14​
A	-8​	0​	16​
E	-6​	-2​	18​
B	-4​	-2​	20​
F#	-6​	-2​	18​
C#	-8​	0​	16​
G#/Ab	-10​	2​	14​
Eb	-12​	4​	12​
Bb	-14​	6​	10​
F	-16​	6​	8​

And graphically:


Very simply, the tuning is an extended 19 note pythagorean circle of pure 5ths overlaying an extended 19 note meantone temperament. The middle bank becomes a modified Vallotti/Young temperament and the width between the upper/lower banks remains constant at 24 cents. In the C-major and A-minor scales the upper and lower banks are pythagorean (that favours melody) whereas the middle bank has great/good major 3rds (that favours harmony). In addition, when one looks at the interactions between all the notes in all three banks, there are 2 pure major 3rds (F-A, and G-B) and 15 others within 2 cents of pure (ie. 384-388 cents).

I've been humming and hawing about this for a while, and I'm not sure if this is merely a curiosity or is actually worthwhile. Any comments are welcome.
Cheers, Aaron

 

[debra]

What you are suggesting to do is not only play with tuning (deviating from the well-tempered tuning in the individual reed banks, but also with the distance between the three banks. A 3-voice note sounds better when M-, M0 and M+ are symmetric than when for instance M- is far from M0 and M+ which are then close to each other. You are thinking in what the individual reed banks are doing, but what we hear is how the three banks sound together. On average your notes may sound like M0 but the different notes will have a different "timbre" because of the asymmetry.
Of course, to know what it will really sound like, the proof of the pudding is in the eating...

 

[AJonsson]

Having the reed banks symmetrical was what I assumed because of the equal beat rates which reinforce each other, however I then came across a posting (linked below) by Mario Bruneau, composer/musician/tuner, who stated that a modern french musette voicing does not conform to that (maybe just his opinion or preference). He stated his preferred voicing is +6, -12 cents.

I was interested in whether the above voicing would make the main major 3rds in C-major (F-A, C-E, and G-B) sound better? Of course, like all irregular/circular temperaments the different 'colour' of the keys would all be different and I imagine the major 3rd of F#-A# would sound wild. Unfortunately I don't have a synthesizer that could be tuned to experiment with, so its all in my head at the moment

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.makers.squeezebox/c/_doTFpuUhek

 

[Ventura]

just a quick reminder, the FR7 roland introduced the ability
to craft a complete tuning from scratch
(or select from quite a few)
without having to sacrifce a set of reeds or a million hours of
painstaking filing and measuring in pursuit of an idea

the Software for the digital accordions was based in part on
borrowed core programming modules from their Digital Harpsichord
and Hammond (VK-7) which included those interesting and
useful "non accordion" capabilities the final product took advantage of

 

[AJonsson]

just a quick reminder, the FR7 roland introduced the ability
to craft a complete tuning from scratch
(or select from quite a few)
without having to sacrifce a set of reeds or a million hours of
painstaking filing and measuring in pursuit of an idea

the Software for the digital accordions was based in part on
borrowed core programming modules from their Digital Harpsichord
and Hammond (VK-7) which included those interesting and
useful "non accordion" capabilities the final product took advantage of

Does the FR-1x also have this ability? It appeared that the musette banks on the editor was a global +/- setting for all notes... can you specify individual note musette offsets too?

 

[Walker]

Hi, @AJonsson. There have been many different variations of musette over the years. Both symmetrical and asymmetrical can sound great. Accordions like byMarco had some nice asymmetrical musette tunings from time to time, often using a single cassotto architecture. I know a number of Northern Italian manufacturers who prefer musette (MMM) in single cassotto over double cassotto. The timbre of the three voices (MMM) is more uniform and knit well together when these reed blocks are together, outside the chamber.

However, what these instruments had in common, is that they were crafted by accordion makers and tuners who listen to the instrument and find the balance that suits it. Also, there is continuity and a subtle tapering throughout the range of notes. The musette may start very strong at the lowest notes, but it gradually gets less detuned as the pitch gets higher. To experiment with tuning is great, but if there is no natural tonal flow across the range from low to high, this will be interesting, but might not suit everyone's ear.

I am old fashioned in that I believe music is an art more than a science, and the ultimate goal of a musical instrument is to create beautiful, sensitive music. This is often seen as a quaint idea by many so-called academics, who often seem to just want new music, regardless of how ugly different it is. Some people even think microtonal accordions are a good idea. Who am I to argue with such, ermmm... wisdom?

Good luck.​

 

[Ventura]

Does the FR-1x also have this ability? It appeared that the musette banks on the editor was a global +/- setting for all notes... can you specify individual note musette offsets too?

i think the FR7 was the only model level with this feature, and i only accessed it from the onboard controls

 

[debra]

Hi, @AJonsson. There have been many different variations of musette over the years. Both symmetrical and asymmetrical can sound great. Accordions like byMarco had some nice asymmetrical musette tunings from time to time, often using a single cassotto architecture. I know a number of Northern Italian manufacturers who prefer musette (MMM) in single cassotto over double cassotto. The timbre of the three vioces (MMM) is more uniform and knit well together when these reed blocks are together, outside the chamber.
...​

True, an asymmetrical musette can sound great. But what Aaron proposes to do is to have the asymmetry vary from note to note. Each note will have a different "imbalance" and will therefore present a different "timbre" than the other notes. I'm curious how that will sound as a whole...

 

[Walker]

True, an asymmetrical musette can sound great. But what Aaron proposes to do is to have the asymmetry vary from note to note. Each note will have a different "imbalance" and will therefore present a different "timbre" than the other notes. I'm curious how that will sound as a whole...

I agree with you Paul, this proposal is for an irregular musette rather than a specifically tuned asymmestrical musette.

Important distinction to make. For me, at it's best, an asymmetrical musette is 'differently' beautiful. However, (with a bit of luck) an irregular musette might just be - eh, how do I say this... beautifully 'different'?

Sorry, I'll go now...

 

[AJonsson]

"Beautifully different"!!! LOL. I guess what I was after is a 'well' temperament that could be extended to multiple reed banks. Each reed bank is itself a 'well' temperament, the outer banks would be considered a reverse 'well'. What fascinates me with the unequal temperaments is the change in character of the different keys, which is not captured in an equal temperament.

Thank you for the input - it really helps bouncing this idea off of others.

 

[Walker]

Thank you for your good humour @AJonsson. Do you have a particular vision for this tuning? Is it for performing any particular type of historic or contemporary music? You have clearly thought seriously about it. Tell us more, so we can understand better and see your vision.

I would be interested to know what your graph looks like when plotted in semitone formation, as in 5ths its quite difficult to visualise the flow of sound.

Many people stay clear of musette, as it's not crisp like double octave tuning... I like musette and I like innovators, especially innovators that like musette. Good on ya!

Stewart

 

[AJonsson]

Thank you for your good humour @AJonsson. Do you have a particular vision for this tuning? Is it for performing any particular type of historic or contemporary music? You have clearly thought seriously about it. Tell us more, so we can understand better and see your vision.

I am not a tuner, I just have an interest in musette accordions. But I don't believe the +/- 'cent' tuning should stay the same throughout a range of notes. I believe it should gradually and smoothly reduce and taper as the pitch get higher.

I would be interested to know what your graph looks like when plotted in semitone formation, as in 5ths its quite difficult to visualise the flow on sound.

Many people stay clear of musette, as it's not crisp like double octave tuning... I like musette and I like innovators, especially innovators that like musette. Good on ya!

Stewart

I became interested in temperaments after I came across an article describing the Fisk-Nanney organ at Stanford University. It is unique because it has two temperaments the organist can play in, but only has 17 notes to the octave. I think the stated goal in the development of the organ was to be able to reproduce as accurately as possible the widest range of classical music. I ended up reverse engineering the tuning merely to understand it, and then I extended the meantone circle of 5ths to 19 notes (after reading Dr. Duffin's "Why I hate Vallotti...") which exactly meets up with the 19 note circle of perfect 5ths. So then I had 36 notes to the octave, or 12 tight bands (24 cents wide) of 3, which I realized was unwieldy so I left the idea.

Fast forward to finding out about accordions with 36 notes to the octave and I was excited!!! Like the Fisk-Nanney organ with multiple temperaments, could it be possible for a button accordion to play an extended meantone, extended pythagorean, a well temperament, AND musette with all 36 notes to the octave?

I fully realize that trying to accomplish too much in one project might result in catastrophic failure, but the accordion is an amazing versatile instrument and already has the capacity with all of its reed banks, so I thought I'd pose the question...

 

[Ventura]

i thought the 17 notes per octave organs were because there were 2 sets of (black keys) accidentals
side by side per octave, tuned for flats and sharps being different frequencies according to a tuning scheme

there are old organs in Europe still in use like that.. i believe the first one i saw
was at the kirk in old Heidleberg (Martin Luthers ? church)

something like that

anyhow they say if you don't play the old music using an old tuning (piano's too)
then you don't really hear what the composer meant

 

[AJonsson]

Ventura, you are right that some organs (and harpsichords too) had split black keys to differentiate an A-flat from a G-sharp because in all regular temperaments (except equal temperament) the two notes are different frequencies. The Fisk-Nanney organ instead uses a large lever that switches between a 'well' temperament and a meantone temperament and uses the same 12 note piano keys, not unlike switching between reed banks on an accordion.

 

[dunlustin]

The English Concertina devised by Wheatstone had Eb and D# (etc) buttons tuned separately.
These are now tuned identically in equal temperament.
Can someone explain how the tuning would (could) have been done before that was the case?
Thank you.

 

[Ventura]

i also applaud the classic musicians and mathemeticians who thought these tunings up
(or discovered them) waaaaaay before digital tuners and apps on your phones
were around to help them

 

[AJonsson]

The English Concertina devised by Wheatstone had Eb and D# (etc) buttons tuned separately.
These are now tuned identically in equal temperament.
Can someone explain how the tuning would (could) have been done before that was the case?
Thank you.

It all depends on the era of the music. Meantone is the most common I believe, but there are many others including Just Temperament. In meantone one narrows the perfect 5th (about 702 cents, where an octave is 1200 cents) by a certain amount and then proceeds around the circle of 5ths to determine where the note lies (after subtracting multiples of 1200 cents so as to be in the same octave). The circle of 5ths proceed as follows:

Fb->Cb->Gb->Db->Ab->Eb->Bb->F->C->G->D->A->E->B->F#->C#->G#->D#->A#->E#->B#

If the 5th is 700 cents then the circle closes on itself after twelve 5ths (if one starts with 'F' then twelve 5ths takes you to 'E#', which becomes the same frequency as 'F'). For example if we make 'C'=zero cents, then 'G' becomes 700 cents, 'D' becomes 2x700 cents-1200 cents=200 cents to stay in the octave. If one makes the perfect 5th to be 698 cents, then after twelve 5th the 'E#' would be lower in frequency than 'F' by 24 cents, or 'G#' would be lower than 'Ab' by 24 cents.

The circle of 5th is a convenient/compact way of representing the notes. You will notice that all the notes in a major or minor scale are always next to each other: C major scale is 'F'->'B', and D major scale is 'G'->'C#' (containing 2 sharps: 'F#' and 'C#'), or F major scale is 'Bb'->'E' containing one flat. Major 3rds are always four 5ths up from the tonic, so 'C'->'E'. Minor 3rds are always three 5ths down from the tonic,
so 'C'->'Eb' and not 'D#'.

I hope this helps

 

[AJonsson]

To illustrate the above post explaining how the meantone distinguishes between sharps and flats, I relabelled the original graphic with the meantone labels:

 

[dunlustin]

AJ thanks for your comprehensive reply. That will need some digesting.