Learning Scottish ornaments (on CBA, probably)

[skybrian]

Hi, I’m interested in learning some Scottish and Irish tunes and I’m wondering how I’d go about learning those interesting ornaments players put into them. I’m learning CBA (C griff) and it seems like it might be tricky with smaller buttons than piano keys, plus I’m playing an instrument with a compact keyboard.

I figured practicing repeated notes might help, so I spent some time on “William Tell” from Palmer & Hughes book 3, and I think I found a reasonable technique for rapidly alternating thumb and second finger on first-row buttons. Not sure where to go from there. Maybe I should use piano accordion instead?

Some songs I’ve learned the basics of (without ornaments) are “Calum’s Road” and “Off to California”.

Also, here’s a recording I like, though I don’t expect to play that well anytime soon. (Or, well, ever, really.)

“Missing Time” -

 

[tcabot]

Beautiful piece, but oh boy, there's an awful lot of notes in it.

 

[JeffJetton]

I figured practicing repeated notes might help, so I spent some time on “William Tell” from Palmer & Hughes book 3, and I think I found a reasonable technique for rapidly alternating thumb and second finger on first-row buttons. Not sure where to go from there.

I guess the next step would be triplets, which is what she's doing in your video. Fingers 3-2-1 (usually) rapidly on the same note. Not sure if the fingering would be the same or not on CBA.

That particular ornamentation, by the way, comes from the fiddling tradition Here's a good example on a similar tune, featuring the phenomenal Cape Breton fiddler Wendy MacIsaac. You get a good look at the bowing involved at the beginning and especially around 1:15

 

[Tom]

Hi, I’m interested in learning some Scottish and Irish tunes and I’m wondering how I’d go about learning those interesting ornaments players put into them. I’m learning CBA (C griff) and it seems like it might be tricky with smaller buttons than piano keys, plus I’m playing an instrument with a compact keyboard.

I figured practicing repeated notes might help, so I spent some time on “William Tell” from Palmer & Hughes book 3, and I think I found a reasonable technique for rapidly alternating thumb and second finger on first-row buttons. Not sure where to go from there. Maybe I should use piano accordion instead?

Some songs I’ve learned the basics of (without ornaments) are “Calum’s Road” and “Off to California”.

Also, here’s a recording I like, though I don’t expect to play that well anytime soon. (Or, well, ever, really.)

“Missing Time” -

Omg, and I thought Pesaturo was fast.....

 

[saundersbp]

I guess the next step would be triplets, which is what she's doing in your video. Fingers 3-2-1 (usually) rapidly on the same note. Not sure if the fingering would be the same or not on CBA.

I'd do 3-2-1 on a piano keyboard but 4-3-2 on a chromatic keyboard for the triplet ornament.

 

[Bloviator]

That is an unnecessary number of triplets.

Mudchutney on YouTube has many videos to learn from.

https://www.youtube.com/@Mudchutney/videos

Also, find a session nearby and see where people around you put them in.

 

[JerryPH]

Omg, and I thought Pesaturo was fast.....

Think about it... triplets are easy... if you can do something simple like 321 on E-D-C over and over, and get fast, then all it takes to translate that to single note triplets is an adjustment of the wrist and a slight downward movement of the arm! If you note, though very impressive, she also gets a little tired and sloppy at times, but recovers. That's the gift that being YOUNG gets you!

I was watching a video where they were talking being able to play fast. One of the bigger secrets that I agreed with a lot... keep the hand small, very loose and relaxed and tight to the keyboard. Without practice if you were not doing the above, just following those 3 hints doubles your speed of the run!

 

[saundersbp]

Mudchutney on YouTube has many videos

Full stop.

Not sure if the fingering would be the same or not on CBA.

The Silver Spear is a good tune for easy triplets and I've popped in some fingering. I'd stick well clear of trying to use piano fingering on a CBA, the ergonomics are very different and you'll get in a muddle very quickly. Hope this helps - just use bottom 3 rows only.

 

[skybrian]

Thanks everyone! Giving it a try.

if you can do something simple like 321 on E-D-C over and over, and get fast, then all it takes to translate that to single note triplets is an adjustment of the wrist and a slight downward movement of the arm!

With a regular triplet, I can play as staccato or legato as I like, but when it's the same note, I'm finding that letting go needs to be more precise for the key to go back up again in time so the notes sound properly separated. But a wrist motion that's moving the finger away seems to help with the letting-go part.

 

[Siegmund]

Thanks everyone! Giving it a try.



With a regular triplet, I can play as staccato or legato as I like, but when it's the same note, I'm finding that letting go needs to be more precise for the key to go back up again in time so the notes sound properly separated. But a wrist motion that's moving the finger away seems to help with the letting-go part.

You might also, dare I say, consider using different notes for your ornaments. A fiddler has some options for fast reiteration of a single note (a ricocheting bow) that other instruments don't -- in particular, re the Scottish or Irish feel, the pipes *can't* play ornaments with the same note repeated twice, and bagpipe music has traditional groupings of grace notes (1, 2, or 3 different pitches) that are inserted between held notes. Googling a list of bagpipe ornaments may give you ideas for patterns other than reiteration and 3-note scales to use.

 

[JeffJetton]

Thanks everyone! Giving it a try.

With a regular triplet, I can play as staccato or legato as I like, but when it's the same note, I'm finding that letting go needs to be more precise for the key to go back up again in time so the notes sound properly separated. But a wrist motion that's moving the finger away seems to help with the letting-go part.

Also keep in mind--if you're not already--that (most) accordions will sound their note with the key pressed only very slightly down. You don't have to bottom them out like on a piano. Often a mere "brushing away" at the key will do the trick, and it will rebound for another note all the more quickly.

 

[JerryPH]

Thanks everyone! Giving it a try.



With a regular triplet, I can play as staccato or legato as I like, but when it's the same note, I'm finding that letting go needs to be more precise for the key to go back up again in time so the notes sound properly separated. But a wrist motion that's moving the finger away seems to help with the letting-go part.

Right and that is dependant on the accordion. Ones with fast keyboards have a bit of an advantage. Also that advantage can be offset a little but raising the finger(s) a little higher. These are things that are integrated in to the technique with time and practice.

 

[davidplaysaccordion]

The one thing I have found has helped me most with my playing, be it piano or piano accordion, has been to get my hand(a) ‘above’ the keyboard with fingers curved down onto the keys rather than laying flat on it.

 

[JerryPH]

That is an unnecessary number of triplets.

In the words of a model I once use to date... "if you've got them, FLAUNT them!"
Was the music written like that? I don't know, but even if not, if she can do that, it's something that makes the song hers and shows her musical personality.

 

[oldbayan]

Playing Irish tunes with ornaments on a chromatic box (piano or CBA) is indeed a challenge, unlike a diatonic instrument which allows for fast effects using bellows movements. If you are after the "real Irish" sound I suggest to get a diatonic accordion