Learning to record with new mics, and a GAME!

[Geronimo]

Here is a shootout of the Røde NT-1A against the omnidirectional capsules of the Oktava MK-012:
[media]

Yup, saw a similar one about 2 weeks ago, David. I just dont want/need an omnidirectional... I have enough noise to deal with in the limited directions it picks up now. If anything, even a supercardiod might work better for me, or as mentioned the smaller diaphram capsules, as they also excel at that.

The point of an omnidirectional is that it doesnt have proximity effect. You can place it as close to the sound source as you like without inhomogenities in the sound field being a problem. They dont really work for ensembles in rooms with reverbation.

A furnace contains low frequencies. Directional microphones will not help much against that. The only thing that works is being close to the sound source. A hypercardioid is worse for general noise than a cardioid since it captures more noise. It is a tool for reducing sound from 135° rather than 180°, at the cost of getting more stuff from the back. Thats great, for example, when you are singing and playing the guitar and want each mostly on its own microphone since you cannot really point a microphone close to 0° at your mouth while having the guitar at 180°.

Its also better at suppressing immediate neighbors when close-captioning ensembles.

Im not saying that having only omnis is going to work well. But ruling them out because of noisy environments imagines directional characteristics to be good for more than they are. Oh, and one can work with mic screens in a pinch to reduce reverbation significantly and achieve some directional characteristics at frequencies low enough that a microophone is just too small to influence.

In my recording you hear the mic cams at the start and they show how noisy the room is at least in reference to reverbation of the speech. I think it should be obvious how effective the close captioning is here even for the omnis.

 

[jozz]

closet door closed and placing my backdrop with 3 layers of muslin on it between the furnace and the mics drops ambient noise from 65db to around 35-42 db. That is still at a level that if I do noise reduction, could affect the sound quality, but until I test it, I wont know how much. A project for this weekend, perhaps.

Its fun to experiment, but I think you can rule out condensers for your environment.

Id settle for something similar as a pair of SM57s, it will do the job in your room. Maybe (more money to spend?) Id go for a super-cardoid, like the Beta 57a, to be able to point more, and will also cut the more distant low frequencies.

 

[JerryPH]

Its fun to experiment, but I think you can rule out condensers for your environment.

Id settle for something similar as a pair of SM57s, it will do the job in your room. Maybe (more money to spend?) Id go for a super-cardoid, like the Beta 57a, to be able to point more, and will also cut the more distant low frequencies.

I have a lot of time now to play around and see what happens with this setup, I really like the sounds of condenser mics, they really do sound better than dynamic mics, but yes, pencil (super?)cardioids are a possible future option. That said, this is just a hobby for me, and no one is paying me, so I can really take my time and see what the future brings.

I again tested turning off the furnace for a few seconds and measuring the ambient noise level, and it was (to my ears) almost dead quiet except for the sound of my NAS (which I could turn off, but it is also something that I could easily move to another part of the basement where it would be sonically invisible). I will do a little testing tonight and see what I come up with.

As far as price is concerned, well, its only money, and though I cannot spend $10,000 per mic, I can see easily saving up and affording something like $1000 for a pair, so that is my budget for 2 mics, which ever I end up choosing... but I will be honest, so far the race seems to be between the AT4040 and the Rode NT1, two mics that are really closely matched up. I need to look a bit more at pencil mics next and see what there is available there.

 

[jozz]

Oh I thought you couldn't make it quiet but I mis-read. :!:

You will have plenty of headroom with 1000 to spend looking forward to test recordings!

 

[JerryPH]

Oh I thought you couldnt make it quiet but I mis-read. :!:

I can! I can make a a small difference with the muslins and test that, or I can turn off the furnace, but eventually, the house gets cold that way... lol

You will have plenty of headroom with 1000 to spend looking forward to test recordings!

Yes, but that is in the future. Right now, I want to see how far I can take the cheap Neewers before I deserve something better!

 

[Keymn]

Oh I thought you couldnt make it quiet but I mis-read. :!:

I can! I can make a a small difference with the muslins and test that, or I can turn off the furnace, but eventually, the house gets cold that way... lol

You will have plenty of headroom with 1000 to spend looking forward to test recordings!

Yes, but that is in the future. Right now, I want to see how far I can take the cheap Neewers before I deserve something better!

What is your recording media/software? Are you using a seperate digital audio recorder along with camcorder audio?
Sometimes, mics are not the answer. My Korg PA3x has a MP3 recorder built in as well as input for singing mic and accordion. If necessary, tweek this audio with software like Audacity. If you recall, my Silent Night was done this way with no editing. I know the later Vaccordion records, can BK7m record this way?
Recording acoustic accordion may be a bit different? Not familiar?

 

[JerryPH]

What is your recording media/software? Are you using a seperate digital audio recorder along with camcorder audio?
Sometimes, mics are not the answer. My Korg PA3x has a MP3 recorder built in as well as input for singing mic and accordion. If necessary, tweek this audio with software like Audacity. If you recall, my Silent Night was done this way with no editing. I know the later Vaccordion records, can BK7m record this way?
Recording acoustic accordion may be a bit different? Not familiar?

Oh, I have that end of the game covered very nicely!

Dont forget, I am looking to record my acoustic (Hohner Morino VI N) accordion with this setup. Digital recordings are super easy to do in very high sound quality thanks to no external interference. I can record straight to the USB key of the 8X or I can go straight to the mixer (now I can do that wirelessly! )

For acoustic recordings, the mics go in to a Mackie 1640i 16-channel mixer with Onyx preamps (super quiet and has the ability to turn on/off Phantom Power on a per channel basis). From there they go via FireWire to my PC and Reaper captures the audio at 24-bit / 96K levels. Ive made some other quick recordings with this setup with the furnace turned off and the difference was dramatic enough to make the decision that I cut back the defined budget of $1000 for any future mics to no more than $500Cdn and that it can be easily pushed to sometime in the future when I want to do more acoustic recordings as the results were just that nice.

The big killer of sound quality was the noise reduction thanks to the furnace sound needing to be removed. Without the furnace, amd those silly foam caps (wind noise reducers), recording quality was much improved and it left me a lot more headroom to play with to cover up the shortcomings of the mics like reduced bass response. A little tweaking of EQs at the mixer and in software resolved that issue nicely.

BTW, Ive tested out and am eyeing a set of Rode M5 pencil condenser mics to replace the Neewer. They seem to be more than good enough for my needs and are able to do more than I will ever need for whatever basement recordings I make in the future.

So thats where things stand in that area for me.

 

[Keymn]

What is your recording media/software? Are you using a seperate digital audio recorder along with camcorder audio?
Sometimes, mics are not the answer. My Korg PA3x has a MP3 recorder built in as well as input for singing mic and accordion. If necessary, tweek this audio with software like Audacity. If you recall, my Silent Night was done this way with no editing. I know the later Vaccordion records, can BK7m record this way?
Recording acoustic accordion may be a bit different? Not familiar?

Oh, I have that end of the game covered very nicely!

Dont forget, I am looking to record my acoustic (Hohner Morino VI N) accordion with this setup. Digital recordings are super easy to do in very high sound quality thanks to no external interference. I can record straight to the USB key of the 8X or I can go straight to the mixer (now I can do that wirelessly! )

For acoustic recordings, the mics go in to a Mackie 1640i 16-channel mixer with Onyx preamps (super quiet and has the ability to turn on/off Phantom Power on a per channel basis). From there they go via FireWire to my PC and Reaper captures the audio at 24-bit / 96K levels. Ive made some other quick recordings with this setup with the furnace turned off and the difference was dramatic enough to make the decision that I cut back the defined budget of $1000 for any future mics to no more than $500Cdn and that it can be easily pushed to sometime in the future when I want to do more acoustic recordings as the results were just that nice.

The big killer of sound quality was the noise reduction thanks to the furnace sound needing to be removed. Without the furnace, amd those silly foam caps (wind noise reducers), recording quality was much improved and it left me a lot more headroom to play with to cover up the shortcomings of the mics like reduced bass response. A little tweaking of EQs at the mixer and in software resolved that issue nicely.

BTW, Ive tested out and am eyeing a set of Rode M5 pencil condenser mics to replace the Neewer. They seem to be more than good enough for my needs and are able to do more than I will ever need for whatever basement recordings I make in the future.

So thats where things stand in that area for me.

My Shure Headset wireless mic, I am not pleased. Shure SM35. Gives out a little buzz wired or wireless belt pack. I think because it is analog mic? Not noticible in live situations. But when I use handheld Beta 87A, clean sound. There is a difference in Mics for recordings and seems you have a good grasp of this. Some still prefer the sm58. I think the heavy rock musicians like singing in them. My SM58 is over 30 years old and think it may not have the quality because of the aging diaphragm.

I have been trying out a couple Video Editing softwares. One is Cyberlink Power Director 16. Comes with audio software and does precise syncing of the seperate audio track to the video audio. The other Movavi Video Editor 14 which has more basic features, but not ruling it out.
I purchased Cakewalk in the 90s. And became familiar with this software, upgraded up to Sonar 2. But I think they are going out of business?
Have the Roland Duo Capture EX for audio into PC.
This song I recorded a few years back using Cakewalk. Notice on the last verse I utilize the software effects on the guitar fill. Recorded the midi tracks, then voice over on a seperate track.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa1dz19hs7laurx/Faith of our Father.mp3?dl=0

 

[JerryPH]

This song I recorded a few years back using Cakewalk. Notice on the last verse I utilize the software effects on the guitar fill. Recorded the midi tracks, then voice over on a seperate track.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa1dz19hs7laurx/Faith of our Father.mp3?dl=0

Beautiful, really well done!

I use Pinnacle Studio Pro Ultimate 21 for my video stuff, it suffices and as mentioned, Reaper for all the audio.

Man, I never realized how complex and nit-picky this stuff could get and just how much effort it takes to get things done (mostly because I do *everything* all by myself without the aid of anyone else), but I have to admit, once completed, there is a high level of personal satisfaction there... likely because I am not a working pro and no one paid me one single red cent for any of this. {}

 

[Keymn]

This song I recorded a few years back using Cakewalk. Notice on the last verse I utilize the software effects on the guitar fill. Recorded the midi tracks, then voice over on a seperate track.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa1dz19hs7laurx/Faith of our Father.mp3?dl=0

Beautiful, really well done!

I use Pinnacle Studio Pro Ultimate 21 for my video stuff, it suffices and as mentioned, Reaper for all the audio.

Man, I never realized how complex and nit-picky this stuff could get and just how much effort it takes to get things done (mostly because I do *everything* all by myself without the aid of anyone else), but I have to admit, once completed, there is a high level of personal satisfaction there... likely because I am not a working pro and no one paid me one single red cent for any of this. {}

I tried syncing separated audio with the video audio on Cakewalk, but ther is no way to get it done easily. I think the Platinum version can do it. Using trial version of Cyberlink Power Director 16. But gonna try Pinnacle trial first before deciding. Leaning towards the Power Director, has a self aligning tool. Not sure if Pinnacle has this? But they seem to get the same result. Adobe 11 is good, but my PC was not powerful enough to try it out, a little pricy.

I never used more than Cakewalk for audio (Had Cakewalk 1.0 in the 90s, cost around $350.00, and upgraded since then). In my opinion, Next best thing to Pro Tools, which is a standard in most recording studios.
Cakewalk, owned by Gibson, just got sold. Roland owned them for awhile, I think. My Sonar 2 was version in 2013, good enough for demos. I think another version came out after, Platinum?
Yes, all is complex...have more time now, maybe?
Bookings are starting to come in. Corporate events mostly. Have to stay ahead of the game, get those video and audio demos upgraded. In today’s music industry, the number one selling point.

 

[JerryPH]

...gonna try Pinnacle trial first before deciding. Leaning towards the Power Director, has a self aligning tool. Not sure if Pinnacle has this? But they seem to get the same result.

Power Director and Pinnacle Studio Ultimate almost look like they were made by the same company, I could use either, but I was more comfortable with Pinnacle.

Studio Ultimate has not only an audio sync feature but multicam as well. The thing is, syncing audio is not all that hard as long as all audio is the same length and is not stretched or distorted time-wise. fact is, I have never had that issue, though I am sure I could deal with it. At least that aspect of my workflow is ok. I tend to want to do it all manually. At 24 FPS, s long as you are within 1 fame of each other between the audio and video, it looks and sounds perfect and I shoot all my video at 1080P/60FPS and 24-bit 48k audio.

In my opinion, Next best thing to Pro Tools, which is a standard in most recording studios.

Again, if I was getting paid, Pro Tools is all that I would use, but there is such a TINY difference between Reaper and ProTools in terms all out capabilities, the price of Reaper makes it a no brainer. Both do things well being what most will ever need, at least at my level.

Yes, all is complex...have more time now, maybe?

The only time I have time is when I sacrifice from another project.

I still have not had time to finish off video #2 of Mild to Wild, but if I could put in a good 20 hours (an easy full weekend), I could complete it, but life gives me had too many interruptions... for example, and I am not kidding... yesterday I got up at 3:00AM, drove from Montreal, Quebec to Hamilton Ontario (650km EACH way!) just so that I could have my mother spend 2 hours at the cemetery where my father is buried, then we got something to eat, sat in the car and drove back, and I was home before 10:00pm... an easy quick 1300km trip. Then I was up until 2:00am because I wanted to make a fast and easy unboxing video of the wireless transmitter/receivers. I uploaded that today, but only because I crashed until 9:00AM, and just completed tasks that needed to be done before I go back to work tomorrow.

Next weekend I also wont have the time, because I have to drive to Niagara Falls and spend the weekend with my lady... that is no chore, though (though that is 690km each way, but at least I do that in 2 days instead of one)... lol

I have 2 other complex video projects that absolutely MUST be finished, one first week of May and one first week of June. and by then, at least 2 more Mild to Wild videos need to be done as well. I could almost be doing this full time, unfortunately, I am not independently wealthy so 40-45 hours of work per week also keep disturbing me, plus I also have to spend at least 6 hours a week on the mats at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, thats more for my personal health than anything.

I am starting to think that I cannot accomplish everything that I need to! :lol:

Bookings are starting to come in. Corporate events mostly. Have to stay ahead of the game, get those video and audio demos upgraded. In today’s music industry, the number one selling point.

I can see how it can be very important. Have fun!

 

[JerryPH]

Getting in to the more advanced stuff is crazy complex... one man can do it to a point ( multiple static cameras, great recording capabilities, and as I am learning, good quality mics and advanced recording techniques), but it is SO MUCH easier if there are two or more people involved on a shoot... I cannot imagine how nice it would be having anyone else helping along, at least in the camera movement area, that would look so cool.

My sister was joking with me and said "what's next, flying drones with integrated 4K cameras??". She was kidding, but the look I must have had made her wince and go "ouch... you're not serious... are you???" :lol: :lol:

... and yet we see accordion videos with drones already!

Nah, not for me... just in case someone was curious enough... I'm not saying I'd never do that, but this is over my personal line in what I want to do.

 

[Keymn]

Getting in to the more advanced stuff is crazy complex... one man can do it to a point ( multiple static cameras, great recording capabilities, and as I am learning, good quality mics and advanced recording techniques), but it is SO MUCH easier if there are two or more people involved on a shoot... I cannot imagine how nice it would be having anyone else helping along, at least in the camera movement area, that would look so cool.

My sister was joking with me and said whats next, flying drones with integrated 4K cameras??. She was kidding, but the look I must have had made her wince and go ouch... youre not serious... are you??? :lol: :lol:

... and yet we see accordion videos with drones already!

Nah, not for me... just in case someone was curious enough... Im not saying Id never do that, but this is over my personal line in what I want to do.

You share some important points in usage of the accordion and recording techniques. Much appreciated.

Recently, experimented with my mic using the Cakewalk plugin compressors. I think a good leaning of compression may make any mic sound good.

 

[JerryPH]

Recently, experimented with my mic using the Cakewalk plugin compressors. I think a good leaning of compression may make any mic sound good.

As I understand it, compression doesnt change the quality of the sound, but it makes the louder parts softer and softer parts louder, kind of making things more even overall. In some cases this can help, especially in a multitrack song, where you want to place the focus on (lets say) one accordion whos volume is all over the place.

Used improperly, it removes the dynamic range of a piece, for example, we might have taken a lot of effort to make the quiet parts quiet and the louder parts loud so that the piece sounds more dramatic. Compression easily removes all your hard work and makes everything sound all approximately the same volume.

Like all tools, used properly, it can make some tracks sound better, but I tend to try to avoid compression or use it VERY gently. Where I see its greatest benefit is in vocals.

 

[jozz]

As I understand it, compression doesnt change the quality of the sound

it does, depends on the compressor (they are not all the same)

plus you have parameters to play with

compressing is a vital part in making anything sound polished, or radio-ready

 

[Geronimo]

As I understand it, compression doesnt change the quality of the sound

it does, depends on the compressor (they are not all the same)

plus you have parameters to play with

compressing is a vital part in making anything sound polished, or radio-ready

I find it actually works rather iffy on stereo recordings of more complex accordion pieces because what are you going to do? Compress both sides separately or ganged? If you compress them ganged, pulses in the accompaniment will disrupt your carefully maintained legato lines in the treble. If you compress them separately, the tonal balance you are trying to maintain with registration and playing technique will be all over the place.

 

[jozz]

yes that's why producing is a real profession...and I suck at it

But from the little experience I know, it's custom to always compress each channel indivdually

first you EQ
then you normalize the highest peak of both channels to 0db
then you compress

for us accordionists, the normalize step would be the most vital for a level relation between left and right hand

 

[JerryPH]

yes thats why producing is a real profession...and I suck at it

But from the little experience I know, its custom to always compress each channel indivdually

first you EQ
then you normalize the highest peak of both channels to 0db
then you compress

for us accordionists, the normalize step would be the most vital for a level relation between left and right hand

Actually, if you ever have the good fortune to visit a professional studio, you will see that it can be way more complex than that for pro performance ready quality, and that the part that takes the least amount of time (yet the most important part), is usually just the studio recording time or the time it takes to get your music to several digital format files.

Most places record the music way low, like in the -12 to even as crazy low as -20 range for simple headroom reasons to avoid clipping (because once something is clipped... its garbage, unsalvageable in the digital world). That means that the very first step they do after recording too quiet is then normalize to -0.1db, then they add low and high pass filters to tracks so that all tones except the desired ones are on any given track, *then* EQ, add effects like reverb or delay, maybe add a limiter on a track that is a bit too aggressive, compress some tracks.

Some steps that are also in there in the middle somewhere, are clean-up runs where they work on things like plosives, chair squeaks, breath sounds, and on guitars, things like fret squeaks and other things like bleed-through from close mics or even sometimes singers listening to tracks through headphones and are too close to the mics. Acoustic accordions suffer from the sounds of pallet bangs, button presses, and all sorts of mechanical clacking and unwanted air movement sounds.

Then on the final mix after everything is done, they may normalize, compress and/or limit again. After that is done, that is when the mix image is completed, where you place each sound in the exact part of the auditory soundstage you want, and yet again they might compress/limit/normalize the overall master track output and sometimes different effects are added here too.

Finally, you output to specific volumes based on what the source will be. If CD, output to around -0.01db is ok to do. Ive mentioned it elsewhere that you need to know how other online sources will screw with your files after you upload them. Look up LUFS on Google and see how different places lower the volume levels of your files (re-process them and often damage them) to different volume levels.

More important than left and right level balances (something extremely easy to do and change), is capturing the sound accurately and then creating the ambience and sonic vision you see in your mind. Balance can be easily changed on the fly, but if the original recording is captured with background noise, or captured inaccurately with poor quality mics or even good mics but poorly used... there is not much you can do to make it sound right in post, even with a lot of work.

Its easy to waste a lot of time in post production, and what I am finding is that the more I learn, the less I realize that I know and my production times have gone up from 5-10 minutes to 2-3 hours for a single song... and I could keep playing with it until I get tired of it and still not be happy with the results.

 

[JerryPH]

I made a couple of blog entries about the new mic and recording setup and a couple of tests using 3 different mic techniques.

It turns out that dynamic mics did a nice job, but the condenser mics really kicked butt and are the perfect mics for me.

I ended up with a matched pair of sE4400a large condenser mics that offer 4 polar patterns and with the furnace/AC turned off in my room, with the sound absorbing ceiling tiles, carpet on the floor and large cloth muslin behind me (mics mostly shoot in to that and it reflects very little of the room back in to the mics), the room is only slightly reverberant in that direction. I have to have the mics 4 or more feet away from the accordion to have any kind of room ambiance appear in the recording, which is nice.

Also, having a mic with 4 polar patterns lets me experiment with different mic techniques not available on mics with just 1-2 patterns.

Part 1:
http://www.AccordionMemories.com/recording-acoustics1/

Part 2:
http://www.AccordionMemories.com/recording-acoustics2/

Thoughts? Opinions?

The more I learn, the more there seems to be to learn!

 

[jozz]

That means that the very first step they do after recording too quiet is then normalize to -0.1db, then they add low and high pass filters to tracks so that all tones except the desired ones are on any given track, *then* EQ,

beg to differ: if you normalize an average accordion track before EQ, you will have to normalize a second time