Midi accordion and arranger keyboard / module

[EuroFolker]

I've tried connecting my Roland FR4x to my Yamaha arranger keyboard via a pair of WIDI Master sticks.

The wireless connection works flawlessly. The setup would be so much fun with the added backing functionality, except the obvious limitation - chord change issues.

If you play the usual bass-chord-chord, bass-chord-chord-chord etc. rhythm pattern with the left hand, obviously bass note chord detection won't work if the next chord is not another major or minor.

The solution is to press the bass / chord button together, unless there's a "workaround" I don't know about.

However doing so means adopting a separate playing technique for this situation - not ideal for someone still in the learning stage.

I assume it is the same for the expensive backing modules such as the Ketron with dedicated "Accordion modes"? Separate left hand technique to make it work?

What's your thoughts and experiences?

 

[JerryPH]

That's the price to pay using an arranger.

 

[EuroFolker]

That's the price to pay using an arranger.

Plus the price of the arranger, of course!

 

[JerryPH]

But that is not a limitation of the wireless midi, that’s a requirement to use ANY arranger on ANY midi powered accordion if you want the arranger to use the right chord from the first beat on any chord change, no other functional work around that sounds right exists, the player has to tell the module when to change chords… or of course one could attach the module to the keyboard of a keyboard player that handles all the chord changes for you, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having MIDI on the accordion, right?

There is no magic secret sauce for when the arranger will change chords other than that.

 

[Ventura]

i will add, and this came to me through Technics.. they had come
out with a digital piano/ensemble that could use left-hand
chords, 1 finger chords, OR scan the entire 88 notes for
a chord (while ignoring single notes)

nowadays, many ensemble kbds have this ability

or one could tell a tabletop arranger to "trigger"
from channel 1 from the accordion (MIDI or Roland or Korg)

this is an easy song to test it with

one note samba

it is really easy to play a full chord on the right hand
on the downbeat, and the bridge is doable as well

so this is an alternate way you can input chords in real time
to run an arranger.. actually there are a LOT of songs you
can do this with (assuming you are a bear on rh chording)
and it's kind of fun doing it this way too.. i could stand at
the front of the store in a Mall and play one handed on the
Technics making it look super easy (with my left hand in my pocket)

like "Por que te Vas" with a Gypsy Kings kind of background pattern

have fun !

 

[Mockie]

But that is not a limitation of the wireless midi, that’s a requirement to use ANY arranger on ANY midi powered accordion if you want the arranger to use the right chord from the first beat on any chord change, no other functional work around that sounds right exists, the player has to tell the module when to change chords… or of course one could attach the module to the keyboard of a keyboard player that handles all the chord changes for you, but that kinda defeats the purpose of having MIDI on the accordion, right?

There is no magic secret sauce for when the arranger will change chords other than that.

Surely after paying huge money for a Roland or Korg digital accordion with hundreds or even thousands of sounds, would anyone want to connect an expander for sound.
Yes. a good quality drum machine maybe, these accordions have all the sounds.

 

[dak]

The solution is to press the bass / chord button together, unless there's a "workaround" I don't know about.

The arranger is not clairvoyant. You can usually decide to let either bass or chords sound "as played" (when both, you still get the drums and other stuff), but when the arranger needs to know what you are doing, it needs to now.

The actual price is even worse: you need to not just press bass/chord together (or just the chord), but you need to do so before the beat so that the arranger gets the change right. And it may be more reliable/musical if you do it already in the last beat before the change.

So this is pure poison while you are learning proper technique. But you can, for example, take just the drums and still have fun playing yourself.

 

[EuroFolker]

The arranger is not clairvoyant. You can usually decide to let either bass or chords sound "as played" (when both, you still get the drums and other stuff), but when the arranger needs to know what you are doing, it needs to now.

The actual price is even worse: you need to not just press bass/chord together (or just the chord), but you need to do so before the beat so that the arranger gets the change right. And it may be more reliable/musical if you do it already in the last beat before the change.

So this is pure poison while you are learning proper technique. But you can, for example, take just the drums and still have fun playing yourself.

Yes, the drums (and bass too, most of the time) work great with all other parts turned off. Time for someone to invent a MIDI Chord Intention brain sensor, or at least minor / major foot pedals

 

[dak]

Yes, the drums (and bass too, most of the time) work great with all other parts turned off. Time for someone to invent a MIDI Chord Intention brain sensor, or at least minor / major foot pedals

From the Solton MS50 manual for the pedal settings:

The 32 different functions that can be assigned are as follows: Arr. A, Arr. B, Arr, C, Arr, D, Str/Sp (Start/
Stop), In/E | (Intro/Ending |), In/E 2, Fill 1, Fill 2, Fill 3, Rot. sl (Rotor Slow), Rot. fs (Rotor Fast), Sust.,
Voic.U (Voice Up), Voic. D (Voice Down), Jump, Key Sr (Key Start), Key Sp (Key Stop), Patt., Rest.
(Restart), Tempo +, Tempo -, minor, 7th, m7th, 5+, dim., 6th, Soft, Sosten., Hold and Glide.

Now I don't see a "major" pedal but that is probably the default. That is kind of an old arranger so one could hope that newer ones haven't dropped that functionality.

 

[EuroFolker]

But that is not a limitation of the wireless midi, that’s a requirement to use ANY arranger on ANY midi powered accordion if you want the arranger to use the right chord from the first beat on any chord change,

Wireless MIDI is same as wired MIDI for the purpose of connecting the devices. That's just what I happened to be using.

From the Solton MS50 manual for the pedal settings:

The 32 different functions that can be assigned are as follows: Arr. A, Arr. B, Arr, C, Arr, D, Str/Sp (Start/
Stop), In/E | (Intro/Ending |), In/E 2, Fill 1, Fill 2, Fill 3, Rot. sl (Rotor Slow), Rot. fs (Rotor Fast), Sust.,
Voic.U (Voice Up), Voic. D (Voice Down), Jump, Key Sr (Key Start), Key Sp (Key Stop), Patt., Rest.
(Restart), Tempo +, Tempo -, minor, 7th, m7th, 5+, dim., 6th, Soft, Sosten., Hold and Glide.

Now I don't see a "major" pedal but that is probably the default. That is kind of an old arranger so one could hope that newer ones haven't dropped that functionality.

I think the Yamaha list is far shorter than that.

As far as arrangers and accordion practice, the thing that works so well for me is pre-recording the chord sequence as MIDI, and playing it back as accompaniment. It can be slowed down / sped up while it's playing, repeated, all that good stuff.

 

[JerryPH]

Surely after paying huge money for a Roland or Korg digital accordion with hundreds or even thousands of sounds, would anyone want to connect an expander for sound.
Yes. a good quality drum machine maybe, these accordions have all the sounds.

Depends on the person... for me, I cannot recall a time that I used any sound on any of the 3 arrangers that I have in my collection for a right hand sound... left hand, yup, a certain bass, strings or deep piano, but never on the right hand. I use the arrangers for what they are strongest in, accompaniment.

That said, if I had the spare $7000CA for a Ketron Event X, it has plenty of lovely sounds that I could potentially enjoy that don't exist on the 8X. 8X users for years have complained for a great trumpet sound, for example... the Event X has many beautiful sounds, but no one is obligated to do one or the other, right? It's all on what the owner of that device likes to hear.

 

[dak]

Surely after paying huge money for a Roland or Korg digital accordion with hundreds or even thousands of sounds, would anyone want to connect an expander for sound.

Because the arranger sounds blend better regarding their volume range and their tonal qualities and the entire tonal setup (like how stereophony and reverb act). I tend to find it easier to fit an acoustic accordion into the framework an arranger provides than a Roland.

 

[Ventura]

yes, playing simply with a V-Accordion using the onboard
orchestral sounds makes life easier, but i have targeted "Sounds"
that i have crafted over ages and complex layers using
multiple sound modules, so whether a MIDI accordion
or an FR3/4x in a MIDI master position if i really want to
do a "Big Band" set solo or duet with a live drummer,
gonna use the sounds in my racks

my Bass sound modeled after growing up with a Cordovox is
still, in my opinion, superior.. my patches to channel Harry James,
Santana., Wes Montgomery are all still superior to my ear

plus with a MIDI chain of outboard sound modules, one also
then has the option of separate volume/fx pedals to control
and blend in everything in real time, which is more lifelike
i feel. Also some internal Roland sounds suffer from how the
box allows or blocks touch vs bellows to drive the attack
and tone development, which is why my outboard "Flute"
is way more under my control than theirs, and as a result
sounds more realistic (to someone in the next room)

not to mention once again.. Drawbars were meant to be grabbed
at need and mauled into compliance for that Hammond sound
to feel alive (for me) and not just in some preset, no matter how
perfect it is.. that Hammond sound is seldom meant to stay unchanged
for an entire song

but again, that is easy for me to say, since i have rolling racks,
ramps, hydraulic lifts, Concrete pad, and a heated Barn to keep 'em..
good solid equipment collected and meshed together over many many years

how much each of you want to excercize precision control over your
orchestral sounds is a matter of choice and willingness to invest
time and money into outboard equipment, and a willingness to
make your Gig setup more complex.. and i can't blame any of you
for just using the stuff thats there, or, (sigh) someone elses "sounds"

 

[Thomas N]

My FR-8X had the MIDI board replaced a couple weeks ago and for two weeks straight I've been using my BK-7M exclusively with it and really enjoying it. It had been over a year since I played with the BK-7M.

Last night I saw my poor Excelsior 960 sitting there and decided to play it. It was funny to me that I instantly regressed to just hitting the bass and chord and sitting there. It took be about 5 minutes to really get back into playing the bass notes instead of just hitting them once.

I decided that I need to start alternating the two accordions with equal amounts of time spent playing them so that I don't morph into a right-hand side player only.

 

[Thomas N]

my Bass sound modeled after growing up with a Cordovox is
still, in my opinion, superior.. my patches to channel Harry James,
Santana., Wes Montgomery are all still superior to my ear

I will, never, ever, be convinced that anything but the Cordovox string bass sound will be superior to it. I grew up on that sound as well and no matter what type of bass I put in for the FR-8X I always shake my head and say to myself, "Nope. Putting the string bass back in there."

 

[JerryPH]

My FR-8X had the MIDI board replaced a couple weeks ago and for two weeks straight I've been using my BK-7M exclusively with it and really enjoying it. It had been over a year since I played with the BK-7M.

Last night I saw my poor Excelsior 960 sitting there and decided to play it. It was funny to me that I instantly regressed to just hitting the bass and chord and sitting there. It took be about 5 minutes to really get back into playing the bass notes instead of just hitting them once.

I decided that I need to start alternating the two accordions with equal amounts of time spent playing them so that I don't morph into a right-hand side player only.

I've mentioned that little danger in the past.

Arrangers are great, but we shouldn't rely on them to the point that it deters us from really playing instead of just "playing along".

My personal fav is about a 50-50 split of songs in my playlist that use and do not use the BK-7m and then I kind of like to split that further in to 50-50 digital and acoustic. I go through phases but always end up making the rounds. I am currently in my acoustic phase where I split that 50-50 in to classical and european folk music.

 

[Ventura]

you CAN just use the drum patterns, right ?

or did they make simplicity complicated ?

my Korg i-series stuff was equally at home as a
simple "sideman" as we used to say or as an arranger
as you now define these

a couple few pedals on the floor for intro break ending

try that with Green Onions

 

[John M]

I will, never, ever, be convinced that anything but the Cordovox string bass sound will be superior to it. I grew up on that sound as well and no matter what type of bass I put in for the FR-8X I always shake my head and say to myself, "Nope. Putting the string bass back in there."

Maybe it's the "unique sound" that is characteristic of the Cordovox string bass that can't be replaced with anything. Kinda, like the Hammond B3 percussion with the B3 key click that gives it that "spit".

 

[Thomas N]

you CAN just use the drum patterns, right ?

or did they make simplicity complicated ?

Very easy to do on the Roland BK-7M, at least. I programmed a foot switch to "turn off arranger chords" which makes it just a drum machine. It's really effective if you hit it twice in a row. The first time silences all the arranger parts and allows you to solo over a drum machine while the second time you tapped it turned it all back on so that the first time you hit a left hand chord it starts playing everything right on the beat.

 

[JerryPH]

you CAN just use the drum patterns, right ?
or did they make simplicity complicated ?

I use the drum patterns and accompaniment patterns, also I use the intro on some and endings on almost all. Easy way to end a piece with near zero effort.