MIDI installation and acoustic instrument tuning

[AccordionTop126]

I am an experienced accordion repairman and am going to start MIDI installations soon. I am wondering if it is advisable to install MIDI in instruments that are not tuned to the A440 standard? Since many instruments are tuned to A442, would this cause an unpleasant sound when using a MIDI module? I understand that most modules allow for pitch alterations, of course.

 

[Ventura]

Unless your customer base only intend to act as one man bands,
then fitting MIDI into A-442 accordions would be a mistake
in my opinion, here in North America, as it would limit the
artists in the extreme regarding their future growth potential
and opportunities.

of course one can de-tune personal modules and sound engines
to adjust for 442 or any amount of sharpness, but for high
quality Vocalists and instrumentalists who use fretless instruments,
their innate sense of correctness regarding Pitch which keeps them
performing with confidence as they hear their correct sound reflected back
at them is harmed when stuck in a situation with an out of pitch lead instrument..

you will also need to learn how to alter shift banks to allow for all reeds
to be shifted to the "off" position on occasion

specific customers who contract you to add MIDI to one of their
personal accordions, of course, will make this decision for themselves

good luck

 

[Chris Laarman]

I am an experienced accordion repairman and am going to start MIDI installations soon. I am wondering if it is advisable to install MIDI in instruments that are not tuned to the A440 standard? Since many instruments are tuned to A442, would this cause an unpleasant sound when using a MIDI module? I understand that most modules allow for pitch alterations, of course.

Ventura may well be right. However, his opinion seems "funneled" to playing other sound sources from the accordion (and doing so without retuning them). - I could imagine other use, with recording MIDI to sequencer software as an example.

 

[JerryPH]

My opinion... first, in most cases, there should be ways to "detune" your MIDI to match the A=442hz standard of the accordion, and as long as you are playing alone OR with others that are of the same tune. If not, that accordion is going to stand out like a sore thumb and, IMHO hurt more than help unless it is disabled or reeds closed. For me it is hard to listen to a "442" accordion along with other "440" tuned instruments, it's really obvious and distracting.

Trained/practiced singers are going to be the ones with the loudest objections, it will throw them off a lot.

In it's element along with other members of it's herd (lol) it sings just fine.

 

[Airy]

From a technical point of view there is nothing wrong with midification of a sharp (or flat) tuned accordion. MIDI notes don”t represent the SOUND which comes out of the accordion but represent the keys / buttons which have been pressed. As @Chris Laarman already stated there are numerous applications which use MIDI as input, like notation or playing MIDI percussion.
And be it that the accordeonist with the 442 Hz accordion occasionally wants to jam with his 440 Hz buddies - mute the reeds or fix the bellows and switch on the sound module.

I don’t see why to accuse MIDI to be the problem when that 442 person is conflicting with other band or orchestra members. Primarily it is the pitch of the acoustic accordeon which may cause problems.
And when it does not conflict - because he/she plays in a 442 orchestra…., well, then everything is fine, and with MIDI too!

 

[Chris Laarman]

From a technical point of view there is nothing wrong with midification of a sharp (or flat) tuned accordion. MIDI notes don”t represent the SOUND which comes out of the accordion but represent the keys / buttons which have been pressed. As @Chris Laarman already stated there are numerous applications which use MIDI as input, like notation or playing MIDI percussion.
And be it that the accordeonist with the 442 Hz accordion occasionally wants to jam with his 440 Hz buddies - mute the reeds or fix the bellows and switch on the sound module.

I don’t see why to accuse MIDI to be the problem when that 442 person is conflicting with other band or orchestra members. Primarily it is the pitch of the acoustic accordeon which may cause problems.
And when it does not conflict - because he/she plays in a 442 orchestra…., well, then everything is fine, and with MIDI too!

(Continuing the thread rather than actually replying)

Firstly, rephrasing Airy's words: the tuning matters equally little to MIDI as it does to sheet music. (However, having instruments tuned obviously improves the perception of a performance.) ;-)

I just did a bit of searching on-line and in manuals. I noticed an old feature request to have Ableton Live store tuning data with individual projects. (I say "data", but I mean MIDI Messages, meaning commands.)
I also noticed that tuning the reference pitch of instruments (as opposed to adjusting to scales) seems "tucked away" in System Exclusive messages. ("System Exclusive" (SE) means that the messages will only be interpreted by MIDI devices of a given brand or even a specific model, and ignored by other devices.) - So, changing the other MIDI instruments from A=440 to A=442 from a MIDI accordion would require sending SE messages to each individual instrument in the performance. (I assume the tuning to be saved in the device's system settings, valid until re-adjusted.)

I don't think that any MIDI accordion is capable of sending those SE messages. However, there may be devices that can "translate" a certain incoming message to a certain outgoing messages, similar to computer-keyboard expander software. (I had such device on my wishlist with Thomann, but I removed it the other month.)

I searched the MIDI Implementation guide (separate from the owner's manual) of my Roland Fantom-08 synthesizer. It proves to have even two settings: Master Coarse Tuning and Master Fine Tuning.

My Roland FR-1xb accordion has just a single Master Tuning setting, and it doesn't seem accesible through [incoming] MIDI, but only using the buttons on the device [definitely sending those SE messages].
So, in order to have this device tuned to A=442, you'd have to press the buttons on it, and to tune it back to A=440 once again.

I side with Airy in his blaming the "442 person" rather than MIDI. (However, this "blaming" does not imply that an instrument stuck to any other reference tuning than A=440 would be inferior!)

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I am an experienced accordion repairman and am going to start MIDI installations soon. I am wondering if it is advisable to install MIDI in instruments that are not tuned to the A440 standard? Since many instruments are tuned to A442, would this cause an unpleasant sound when using a MIDI module? I understand that

Airy got it rright. I went for MIDI in my acoustic after using a Sem Ciao reedless because both could provide instrument sounds that my small, amateur band didn’t have but needed.

By the way, some commercially-available MIDI for accordions have sound modules with decent accordion sounds (Master MIDI Play is one) so if they are employed in a 442-tuned acoustic accordion, who in the audience will know the difference?

 

[JerryPH]

Just a little addendum... I've picked up an accordion recently that has a MIDI with 1990's technology (LIMEX MPR3). It has the ability to detune by frequency in it making adjusting it to an "A=442" instrument a breeze... so if that one had it, the newer models (MPR4, etc...) should have it too.

That said, I still kind of stand by the opinion that these instruments played alone won't have any negative impact, but playing along with other instruments tuned to 440hz would be unpleasant at the very least, sonically disastrous at the worst.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Adding to what Jerry said:

Suppose an accordionist is playing a solo job and that accordionist wants to double his melody with another instrument sound from his MIDI module. The accordion is tuned to 442 and the MIDI sounds are tuned to 440. Depending on the make and model of the MIDI installation, the installer should take time to show the accordionist how to retune the MIDI sounds if there is a provision for that, or explain the problem to the accordionist and present some alternatives. (There might be opportunities for additional profit for the installer in the second case.)

 

[Ventura]

having always used outboard MIDI sound modules, and synths, all of them
could be tuned in global settings when required from physical
controls onboard

Kawai, Korg, Roland, Orla, Siel, Yamaha

Most of my accordions have been 440, since i pretty much always had
a Cordovox, it just seemed natural to me that 440 was obviously correct

i only have had a few 442 boxes which were so good i used them anyway,
and for which i could adjust the Korg i5m Midi player which i used
for decades for backing trax to 442..

usually after the first song played and noticing the sound was off

LoL