Moving from B/C to G/C button accordian.....

[96Bass]

Not knowing if this has been mentioned since I didn’t read this entire thread…
If you have two rows that are a half tone apart, such as B/C or D/D#, you have all 12 notes. If you have G/C you have a C scale plus F#, only 8 notes.

 

[SteveBox]

If you have two rows that are a half tone apart, such as B/C or D/D#, you have all 12 notes.

Yes a semitone diatonic box is fully chromatic for single note melodies. However, it is limited in the chords you can play on the right side. If it has the usual 8-button diatonic bass, it is even more restricted for the bass accompaniment. It doesn't even have bass notes or chords for a lot of the keys you can play in with the right hand. As a result, most B/C or similar accordionists don't do much with the bass. I think putting a small chromatic bass such as the Darwin system on semitone diatonics would make a lot more sense.

 

[OuijaBoard]

I am still very angry because of this waste of time.
I see so many beginners thinking that the small diatonic accordion is far more simple to learn.....no !!! it is just smaller.
Actually it makes me think of my car radio sony with 3 buttons...It seems simple to use .... well yes: to turn down the volume you press 3 times the big button ,once the small and twice the medium and all sorts of pathes to know !!! I now love my big car radio with a button dedicated to each function.
In the end, I know diatonic accordion is great, but to play what it was designed for...traditional music in one appropriate tonality

Ha-ha, yes indeed . . . B/C accordion is very difficult to play well. I had to put a lot of work into getting the CBA layout imprinted deeply enough to be fluid and automatic, but it is so much easier and fun to play. And in any key, too, no need to carry or yearn for extra boxes.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Not knowing if this has been mentioned since I didn’t read this entire thread…
If you have two rows that are a half tone apart, such as B/C or D/D#, you have all 12 notes. If you have G/C you have a C scale plus F#, only 8 notes.

In most of the quint systems, extra accidentals are added one way or another. Sometimes they are tacked on at the far ends of the main scale rows, though it's not the whole set of them. In other cases a third row is being added with the accidentals, as with Anglo concertina.

Though it's true the 2-row semitone boxes are indeed fully chromatic, a certain number of keys will be very awkward and not terribly workable. Because they use none of the "magic notes" that recur twice, one on the pull in one row, the other on the push in the other row. Yet they also do not "fall with" the notes of a folk tune the way a single diatonic scale is laid out on a bisonoric box, with the major triad notes all on the push. They don't dovetail or lilt with a polka or jig, say. On B/C for example, keys such as Ab and Eb are among these. Technically you have the notes to play them, but they're very awkward. No basses either, of course.

There's an anecdote about B/C wizard Billy McComiskey, in which somebody asked him in reference to the purported limitations of his accordion system, "But what do you do if the session is in e-flat?" To which he answered, "Just play in e-flat, then." But mortals don't usually get there.

 

[CC_PDX]

This whole discussion takes me back to a little over a year ago when I was also considering options for getting into ITM and English and Breton folk. I dove into the same questions about very purpose-built diatonic boxes like B/C or G/C or D/G or C/F with their compromises of awkward basses in endless combinations. They may excel within their traditions and repertoire but, as others have pointed out, are also very limited in being able to move between those worlds due to the differing dominant keys played. It seemed like these rigid boundaries between traditions were being enforced as an artifact of technological compromises from history (simple small boxes built to play relatively easily and efficiently in a handful of keys).

I am a big proponent of the idea of limitations spurring creativity, but this was a situation where the limitations felt arbitrary and unnecessary. Not having access to certain notes or combinations of notes/harmonies because the tune was in a different key was a non-starter for me. I would have been as frustrated as a writer forced to use a computer keyboard that only had a subset of the alphabet. Sure I could carefully plan my sentences and get the point across, but how often would the perfect word or phrase be off-limits?

Acquiring, learning and hauling multiple boxes around “solves” this problem but, continuing the dashboard radio analogy mentioned above, it would be like carrying around a whole collection of radios that each only get a few stations in pursuit of “simplicity.”

Fortunately @SteveBox put the idea in my head about small chromatics with Darwin bass and for me it has been a perfect solution to bridge all of these folk traditions and more. To be sure, it is an almost completely uncharted path, so almost zero guidance exists except your own ears.

 

[tcabot]

While we're at it, there's also the British Chromatic Accordion (B/C/C# with Stradella bass) and hybrid semitone-quart 3-row (eg B/C/F or C#/C/F).
Just to add to the already confusing number of options.

Thinking about it, technological compromises from history might be a lot more relevant today than they were a 100 years ago. Given that the price of a new high quality CBA is more than a year's worth of earnings for many people on this planet.

 

[dunlustin]

To come back to the OP:
"Hi - I'm a beginner and....."
Is he 'not waving but drowning' or perhaps he has even stopped waving?

 

[SteveBox]

There's an anecdote about B/C wizard Billy McComiskey, in which somebody asked him in reference to the purported limitations of his accordion system, "But what do you do if the session is in e-flat?" To which he answered, "Just play in e-flat, then." But mortals don't usually get there.

There are some wizards of the Irish button accordion that often play tunes in Eb, such as Mairtin O'Connor or Jackie Daley. This can add an extra lift to the tunes, by playing in a key the ear is not so used to hearing. I know someone who once sat in on an Eb session with Jackie Daley. In such situations, fiddlers usually tune up a half-step.

So the tunes come out in Eb, but are they actually playing in Eb, in the same sense as a chromatic accordionist playing in Eb? Not really. I think they normally play a C#/D box, but in this case they are using a D/D#(Eb) accordion. With a diatonic box, you do not so much choose the key you play in, the box chooses it for you.

 

[OuijaBoard]

There are some wizards of the Irish button accordion that often play tunes in Eb, such as Mairtin O'Connor or Jackie Daley. This can add an extra lift to the tunes, by playing in a key the ear is not so used to hearing. I know someone who once sat in on an Eb session with Jackie Daley. In such situations, fiddlers usually tune up a half-step.

So the tunes come out in Eb, but are they actually playing in Eb, in the same sense as a chromatic accordionist playing in Eb? Not really. I think they normally play a C#/D box, but in this case they are using a D/D#(Eb) accordion. With a diatonic box, you do not so much choose the key you play in, the box chooses it for you.where tunes nowadays played in D are played in Eb, same with G and Ab

Well, the point of the anecdote was that Billy McComiskey--and other stone-cold virtuosos--can play their B/C boxes in e-flat if called upon on the fly. That's not to say they'd do an entire session or concert in Eb on a B/C box, or wouldn't use a second box if they had the choice. But some of these people are definitely good enough to run with a tune in Eb on their B/C. Jackie Daly is another one with this level of chops.

But yes, what usually occurs is as you described. Eb tuning and sessions were more common in Ireland before and up to the mid-century, possibly due to pipers. Some classic accordion recordings are on D/D# boxes or variants of those. There are classic box recordings by the late Joe Cooley and the late Tony MacMahon in those tunings. Tony MacMahon had Cooley's old grey Paolo Soprani after Cooley passed. Yes, some players still play and record this way. Charlie Harris often plays a D/D# and plays D tunes on the outer row rather than switch boxes. Mick Mulcahey, the accordionist who records with his daughters as The Mulcahey Family, has done several beautiful Eb records on another old grey Paolo Soprani. The concertina maestro Noel Hill also sometimes plays in Eb on a flat-tuned concertina.

There are also other flat tunings that don't give "extra lift" the way Eb does because they are not raising from conventional pitch--they do the opposite, in a way that is very haunting and soulful. Again possibly due to C pipers, B/C boxes were first played "on the row" in flat C sessions where what we know think of as D tunes were in C, and G tunes in F, etc. Flat C sessions are a "thing" with some East Clare players, and you often hear lots of tunes in C, F, d minor and g minor. "B" sessions have also come into vogue to a degree due to pipers getting interested in the old B pipes. One can use a B/C on the B row for those. Or, a C#/D box fingers smoothly and fluidly "between the rows" for B playing. Noel Hill and some other concertina players have now acquired concertinas tuned flat for B playing. So-called "B" concertinas are A/E concertinas. Bb/F concertinas are often used for C sessions, though it's not too hard to manage C and F on a regular C/G concertina. C#/G# concertinas were used back in the day for Eb playing, and are still sometimes ordered new today.

 

[CC_PDX]

But yes, what usually occurs is as you described. Eb tuning and sessions were more common in Ireland before and up to the mid-century, possibly due to pipers. Some classic accordion recordings are on D/D# boxes or variants of those. There are classic box recordings by the late Joe Cooley and the late Tony MacMahon in those tunings. Tony MacMahon had Cooley's old grey Paolo Soprani after Cooley passed. Yes, some players still play and record this way. Charlie Harris often plays a D/D# and plays D tunes on the outer row rather than switch boxes. Mick Mulcahey, the accordionist who records with his daughters as The Mulcahey Family, has done several beautiful Eb records on another old grey Paolo Soprani. The concertina maestro Noel Hill also sometimes plays in Eb on a flat-tuned concertina.

There are also other flat tunings that don't give "extra lift" the way Eb does because they are not raising from conventional pitch--they do the opposite, in a way that is very haunting and soulful. Again possibly due to C pipers, B/C boxes were first played "on the row" in flat C sessions where what we know think of as D tunes were in C, and G tunes in F, etc. Flat C sessions are a "thing" with some East Clare players, and you often hear lots of tunes in C, F, d minor and g minor. "B" sessions have also come into vogue to a degree due to pipers getting interested in the old B pipes. One can use a B/C on the B row for those. Or, a C#/D box fingers smoothly and fluidly "between the rows" for B playing. Noel Hill and some other concertina players have now acquired concertinas tuned flat for B playing. So-called "B" concertinas are A/E concertinas. Bb/F concertinas are often used for C sessions, though it's not too hard to manage C and F on a regular C/G concertina. C#/G# concertinas were used back in the day for Eb playing, and are still sometimes ordered new today.

That captures exactly what I meant about the limitations / artifacts of history. Pipers, whistles etc. dictated the keys and some super-humans have figured out involved workarounds to make it kind of work in other keys as a bit of a parlor trick with added points for difficulty. Back in the Baroque era, they were locked into whatever key the harpsichord was tuned to until Mean and Equal temperaments were developed. That's where I see a distinction between "preserving a tradition" vs. continuing something that was an unimportant vestige of circumstance. We look at sturdy homes built in the 1700's and marvel at how well they were built, seeing what construction techniques can be adopted, but we don't make our doors (or beds) 5' 6" in deference to them.

Most listeners would have no idea that a song was transposed, so key signatures really don't need to be set in stone except for the purposes of a trad session (to account for the limited options of that tradition's particular instrumental makeup). Outside those genres, I see it as much more fluid and enjoy being able to accommodate the singer, guitarist, instrument characteristic etc. I tell them to sing or play in their comfortable key/range and let me follow them. When guitarists throw a capo on and start playing in some bizarre key, my bassist and I just shrug and play accordingly. My mandolin partner has an instrument that sounds amazing in certain keys so we often play tunes in the "wrong" key to take maximum advantage. A lot of tunes were written in a specific a key to take advantage of the ringing open strings on a fiddle or guitar to make it sound fuller (or easier to play). I welcome all of them (and having the option to do so) and find mixing things up key-wise makes you approach the songs you know in a fresh way.

Thinking about it, technological compromises from history might be a lot more relevant today than they were a 100 years ago. Given that the price of a new high quality CBA is more than a year's worth of earnings for many people on this planet.

Good point! I agree with this except the cost of buying 2-3 decent "single use" boxes to cover additional keys could easily cost more than a compact CBA. I'm not made of money so all of my boxes have been pre-owned. The Darwin system is considerably cheaper and less complex to build and maintain than stradella. I would selfishly love to see more of them widely available as used.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Thinking about it, technological compromises from history might be a lot more relevant today than they were a 100 years ago. Given that the price of a new high quality CBA is more than a year's worth of earnings for many people on this planet.

New Italian-made two-voice 26 and 30-key small PAs are averaging high $2000's to mid-$3,000's in price these days. Not saying that is desirable, but it's where things are. A couple of the small Italian-made MM 60 or 72 bass CBA models can be found at prices not too far from that range. The Pigini Preludio C30 and the Mengascini "Junior" models come to mind, and there is a 3-row 60-bass MM in that range by Serenellini. The Bugari catalogue also lists a 60-bass CBA MM as debra kindly pointed out, though there aren't any listed with dealers and I don't know current pricing.

OTOH, there is also the gasp-inducing small MM 60-bass Saltarelle Chaville at, gulp, $6,000, no bass registers. Or the small MM Castagnari CBA at even more. Or the eye-watering prices for small MM Gabbanelli or Hohner Anacleto PAs.

Of course, it's true that even the lower prices I mentioned are out of the reach of many people. Hence the Asian-made Hohner Nova line of small CBAs, which are quite playable, though the build, parts and components seem unlikely to hold up for 50 years like some of their small-size West German Hohner ancestors.

 

[tcabot]

I do like how Darwin looks on paper. A lot. Something like this is asking to be put on a B/C/C#. Or a small CBA.
Quite an elegant minimalist solution that, most likely, works and sounds better than the overburdened stradella monstrocity.

 

[OuijaBoard]

A 3X12 36-bass would do me just fine for trad: Bass row, counter-bass row, and chord row with no thirds or removable thirds. Done.

 

[dak]

I think both instruments have their pros and cons, although I've only been playing with the diatonic for a week, so we'll see how it develops.
It sounds like you were trying to get the diatonic to turn tricks that it was really not designed for.

A big radio is great, but you might soon find that you need a bigger car to accommodate the radio. Also it costs more than the car itself. And a button for each function is great until you don't use the car for a week or two, then come back to it having forgotten what each one of those 400 buttons does. And at the end of the day, they are both just radios - neither of them can be turned into supercomputers to mine bitcoins.

I recently visited my father who has kind of some digital/Internet receiver thing feeding the TV set, and even in standby it is constantly whirring its fan and blowing heat. Frankly I have the suspicion that it does mine bitcoins. We've put its settings such that it shuts down when switched off, but that means that it takes 2 minutes every time you switch it on. If you have enough of those things working for you, it might help pumping money from your customers into your own or some hacker's pockets.