Paolo Soprani Professionale IV 41/120 LMMH with added MIDI

[Jose EB5AGV]

Sorry for another question... I am very close to buy this Paolo Soprani Professionale IV, with the possibility to return it if not satisfied. It has a MusicTech Q-Link MIDI interface (the simpler one, with no dynamics) as a plus (I am thinking on silent practice, although limited by the lack of dynamics). Asking price is 1000€ and I have talked with the seller, who has now a Roland MIDI accordion, so this sits unused.

The MIDI system seems to have some intermmitent fault on its internal cabling to bass section (but I repair elecronics, so it would not be a big trouble for me).

I have got a video of it being played and it is lovely!





Any opinion, towards or against it, please?

Thanks!

Jose

 

[debra]

Not knowing the internal state of the accordion I'd say that 1000€ is likely a very reasonable asking price for an accordion like this. Excellent brand, but very likely no cassotto. (The term "professional" of course means that it is very UNlikely that this accordion was used by professionals...)

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Not knowing the internal state of the accordion I'd say that 1000€ is likely a very reasonable asking price for an accordion like this. Excellent brand, but very likely no cassotto. (The term "professional" of course means that it is very UNlikely that this accordion was used by professionals...)

Well, the seller is a professional musician, if that counts

No, there is no cassotto on this model.

Looking to what you can buy around 1000€, new means low end, and on the used market, at least in Spain, tends to smaller / less registers units. This one has been apparently well cared of.

 

[Ffingers]

Only for my information, Jose, do you know when this instrument was made?
I have a different model with a similar grill, the origins of which I cannot seem to get any published information.

 

[debra]

Well, the seller is a professional musician, if that counts

No, there is no cassotto on this model.

Looking to what you can buy around 1000€, new means low end, and on the used market, at least in Spain, tends to smaller / less registers units. This one has been apparently well cared of.

OK... if the seller is a professional musician this may indicate the accordion has a high "mileage", resulting in wear to the reeds and all other mechanical parts. But the price is good...

 

[Ben-jammin]

When it comes to accordions, finding a well cared for, used Italian instrument is your best bet. The midi system is a major plus in my opinion. Unless it’s been really abused I think it’s a pretty reasonable price.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

OK... if the seller is a professional musician this may indicate the accordion has a high "mileage", resulting in wear to the reeds and all other mechanical parts. But the price is good...

He seems to play other instruments and the accordion always connnected to a computer for accompaniment, but it is not his main instrument (I have seen other instruments in the background of the video). I guess the music is not his main job, but this is just my opinion.

All in all, similar instruments are from 1300€ to 2000€ in the local market. And without the MIDI interface. So, if we put a value on it, let's say 300€, the acoustic instrument would be 700€. Yes, I am looking for a way to justify this

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Only for my information, Jose, do you know when this instrument was made?
I have a different model with a similar grill, the origins of which I cannot seem to get any published information.

Sorry, I can't give you an exact date. I guess from 80s-90s because the unit has a PROFESSIONALE IV label (see first picture) which is not always found on the older Professionale IV, but it is on the newer units, with black keys. So it should be a unit between both types. But yours could be older

 

[Ben-jammin]

I

All in all, similar instruments are from 1300€ to 2000€ in the local market. And without the MIDI interface. So, if we put a value on it, let's say 300€, the acoustic instrument would be 700€. Yes, I am looking for a way to justify this

The cost to get midi fitted to another accordion usually greatly exceeds 300 euros. Where I live a basic left/right installation will cost more than $1000. Unless you find real issues with the acoustic function of the accordion i think this is a winner.

 

[Scuromondo]

Even without MIDI, $1000 for this accordion (as always, assuming the interior condition matches the external appearance) is a very good price.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Caveat: I can't vouch for what "Professionale" signified in the 1980s/1990s. The good-quality Castelfi-made Professionales I am familiar with are more recent. Post-2005-ish, or maybe even post-2010-ish.


The more contemporary Paolo Sopranis have had different series of different quality. There was a "Junior" or "Studio" series of lesser quality that may have had some or all components built overseas. There was or is a deluxe "Super Paolo" or "Super King" series that is Italian made with cassotto and often premium reeds.

Then in the middle there was/is the "Professionale" series--Italian made with Durall reeds, no cassotto. The smaller ones were stocked throughout the 'teens in Ireland and the UK as excellent quality folk instruments. A CBA version of the "Professionale" models is dubbed the "Internazionale."

I bought a small Professionale 26/60 LMM from about 2021, used like new about a year and a half ago, thank God it was at my office when my home was ransacked by burglars a couple months later and I lost much of my accordion supply. "Made in Castelfidardo" stamp on the chassis and no reason to suspect otherwise. I use the instrument for folk music and absolutely love it.

The PS name is licensed out, it's not the original house of PS. I don't know who in Castelfi has been doing the Professionales but mine is from about 2021 and was very good value for a non-fancy but good quality Italian-made box.

They were not doing much in the way of production for some years during/just after the pandemic. Things seem to be ramping up a bit again, but since the pandemic the only smaller Professionales I've seen brand new have been special orders by dealers. The bigger ones do seem to be stocking again.

You can see different PS lines at this Castelfi dealer. I don't see the line that used to be lower quality--I think those were "Studio" or "Junior" or something. Allodi in London sometimes had them in used stock and I saw them as something to avoid. But the "Professionales" are nice so long as you're not looking for premium cassotto type stuff.

https://www.castelfidardomusica.it/en/256-accordion-paolo-soprani?_gl=1*3a7ooi*_up*MQ..*_ga*ODQxNjU2MzE0LjE3NDA2ODA0MzM.*_ga_D6CXBM2BVB*MTc0MDY4MDQzMi4xLjAuMTc0MDY4MDQzMi4wLjAuMA..

 

[JerryPH]

Of all the MIDI systems out there, I seem to like Musictec the least. They seem to have the lowest reliability. Some have an external box that is needed to work. Be sure you know what model you get, that all the parts/sections are there and that it all works BEFORE you invest.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Of all the MIDI systems out there, I seem to like Musictec the least. They seem to have the lowest reliability. Some have an external box that is needed to work. Be sure you know what model you get, that all the parts/sections are there and that it all works BEFORE you invest.

Yes, the unit is complete, with the power supply/controller and an expression pedal with it. It has a known intermittent fault (that explains in part the low price) which I hope to fix (seems like a damaged cable/intermittent connection). For me the MIDI is a plus, as my main aim is the instrument itself

 

[Jim S]

Hi Jose,

That seems an excellent price to me, but I do appreciate the various caveats that others have offered in earlier comments above. I have a similar-sized Paolo Soprani, musette tuned, and with a different grill, bought new for me by my dad in 1974 (I still have the original sales invoice from Bells of Surbiton), and I think this one is quite a bit newer than mine, as I don't remember that grill when I went through their stock. They were great - I knew which model I wanted and they let me sit in the stockroom all day deciding which one of six to choose.

It's been great and the keyboard in particular is still so smooth and quiet, so if all works as it should, I'm sure you wouldn't regret the decision. I also recently bought a secondhand Roland FR1x for playing out and that had been gigged - it was obvious from first sight, and honestly, the photo of the Paolo Soprani you've provided looks ten times better than my Roland.

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Hi Jose,

That seems an excellent price to me, but I do appreciate the various caveats that others have offered in earlier comments above. I have a similar-sized Paolo Soprani, musette tuned, and with a different grill, bought new for me by my dad in 1974 (I still have the original sales invoice from Bells of Surbiton), and I think this one is quite a bit newer than mine, as I don't remember that grill when I went through their stock. They were great - I knew which model I wanted and they let me sit in the stockroom all day deciding which one of six to choose.

It's been great and the keyboard in particular is still so smooth and quiet, so if all works as it should, I'm sure you wouldn't regret the decision. I also recently bought a secondhand Roland FR1x for playing out and that had been gigged - it was obvious from first sight, and honestly, the photo of the Paolo Soprani you've provided looks ten times better than my Roland.

It seems difficult to find the exact manufacturing date for these instruments. I have asked several owners of similar ones on sale and, incredibly, got no definite date on any of them. My own research has concluded that it should be an 80s-90s, but I can be wrong. And, anyway, is a very large 20 year margin...

All in all, the important thing is the condition of the unit. The current owner bought it used in 2019, and has replaced it by a Roland digital accordion. That is all the info I have

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Well, so far this buying is on stand-by. I paid for it, but the seller was unable to ship it on time and so the sales platform returned my money. The reason for the shipping not done is that the volume pedal, which is part of the MIDI system, was on another place and the seller has not been able to get it on time.

Now the problem is that I am having serious thoughts about this!. That is the bad thing when, after lots of thinking, you finally do something and then there is an unexpected second chance

So far I have already bought my first restoration project. Which, perhaps, if I succeed, would be more than enough accordion for a noob like me!

Decisions, decisions, ...

 

[Ben-jammin]

I recently bought a used car of a particular model I wanted. I could have spent half as much money to get one that doesn’t work that I would have to repair. But I want to drive the car this summer instead of working on one. I think there might be similarities in our two situations.

My 2 cents is that paolo would be a significant upgrade from that Hohner even after the Hohner is restored. It’s actually almost too good of a price that would make me suspicious, especially with a midi system using Hall effect sensors. The Hohner likely could be good to learn repair, but repairing accordions is time consuming and repair parts do have monetary costs that can add up. To me having an instrument that is ready to play is well worth that difference in price.

 

[Ventura]

" the volume pedal, which is part of the MIDI system, was on another place and the seller has not been able to get it on time "

this suggests that the system was not complete, and the seller
had to acquire a missing part.. Sometimes the accessories for
a MIDI system are specific to the model and series
(specs changed frequently at times)
so i wonder if the seller actually was able to know for sure
if the MIDI section even works or if this accessory is the correct one.

for inexpensive purchases, like your fix-it-up choice, we play with money
that we don't mind losing, and so the risk is acceptable

but for the more expensive purchases, unless you are quite wealthy
like some of the collectors here in the group, and also because of
your beginner level of experience, perhaps for the next few years
you should limit yourself to accordions within traveling distance..
otherwise you risk a lot of disappointment, which can sour your
love for the Accordion

did you notice another thread where someone was assuming
all kinds of things about a distant online purchase that were
based entirely on their vivid imagination and wishful thinking.. ?
that is a common side effect of not-enough-practical-experience
and the natural hope of finding a "gem" that the entire rest of the
world has overlooked

if there are no interesting offers in your local travel area, then
plan your vacations to places where some of us can help set
you up with visits to accordion clubs or shops, or once you
truly have an understanding of the kind of accordion you really
want (as a keeper) perhaps someone here you make friends with
might share one with you

for now enjoy your project and show us photo's of the inside and
with the grille off so we can help you evaluate repairs

enjoy !

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

I recently bought a used car of a particular model I wanted. I could have spent half as much money to get one that doesn’t work that I would have to repair. But I want to drive the car this summer instead of working on one. I think there might be similarities in our two situations.

My 2 cents is that paolo would be a significant upgrade from that Hohner even after the Hohner is restored. It’s actually almost too good of a price that would make me suspicious, especially with a midi system using Hall effect sensors. The Hohner likely could be good to learn repair, but repairing accordions is time consuming and repair parts do have monetary costs that can add up. To me having an instrument that is ready to play is well worth that difference in price.

Well, let me explain a bit: I have already a learning accordion, a Chinese made Estrella 34/72. As a noob, being in good enough shape, that accordion can serve me well. So the Hohner is a fun project (I love fixing things) and perhaps I can compare a decent instrument with my Estrella and have some feel of how better instruments were built and how they sound (here perhaps I am too optimistic, time will tell if it ends being a good instrument)

I don't need the Hohner to play right now, so it can be even a failure and still be interesting to me as a way to start on the technical side of accordions.

Regarding the PS, it could be still a good opportunity and I am still thinking about what to do when the seller says he is ready to proceed

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

" the volume pedal, which is part of the MIDI system, was on another place and the seller has not been able to get it on time "

this suggests that the system was not complete, and the seller
had to acquire a missing part.. Sometimes the accessories for
a MIDI system are specific to the model and series
(specs changed frequently at times)
so i wonder if the seller actually was able to know for sure
if the MIDI section even works or if this accessory is the correct one.

for inexpensive purchases, like your fix-it-up choice, we play with money
that we don't mind losing, and so the risk is acceptable

but for the more expensive purchases, unless you are quite wealthy
like some of the collectors here in the group, and also because of
your beginner level of experience, perhaps for the next few years
you should limit yourself to accordions within traveling distance..
otherwise you risk a lot of disappointment, which can sour your
love for the Accordion

did you notice another thread where someone was assuming
all kinds of things about a distant online purchase that were
based entirely on their vivid imagination and wishful thinking.. ?
that is a common side effect of not-enough-practical-experience
and the natural hope of finding a "gem" that the entire rest of the
world has overlooked

if there are no interesting offers in your local travel area, then
plan your vacations to places where some of us can help set
you up with visits to accordion clubs or shops, or once you
truly have an understanding of the kind of accordion you really
want (as a keeper) perhaps someone here you make friends with
might share one with you

for now enjoy your project and show us photo's of the inside and
with the grille off so we can help you evaluate repairs

enjoy !

I am confident the seller is telling the truth, because he used the MIDI just for some functions which didn't require the pedal. I got a video of him playing it connected to a PC and it worked fine in that moment, the PC provided just accompaniment based on what he played. I have also spoken to him and have some background of his job and everything seems legit.

All in all, yes, you are right I am still not able to discern what I really want. My approach on that is that I can resell the accordion with no or little loss if it does not fit me (of course, if condition is good enough, as it seems)

I have the weekend to balance whether to buy it or not. I am now about 60% on the NO side.