Piano keyboard vs. Kravtsov keyboard

[Walker]

The traditional piano keyboard has been around for many centuries and is very common on lots of musical instruments such as the melodica, harmonium, piano-accordion, organ, piano, harpsichord, digital keyboards etc.

However, the Kravtsov keyboard design would appear to be an ideal evolution of the piano keyboard. Its design is more ergonomic and allows a greater range of notes on the treble keyboard, but it still retains the established keyboard fingerings for scales etc. as the classic "piano" keyboard.

So why has the Kravtsov design failed to supersede and replace the classic keyboard design?

Is the classic keyboard design just better? Are ergonomics less important than we think?

It would be great to hear everyone's thoughts.

Here are two very nice renditions of the same piece on the modern (KA) and classic (PA) keyboard designs...

Le Coucou on Kravtsov accordion:



Le Coucou on Piano accordion:

 

[Rosie C]

Hmm, I started playing piano keyboard in 1977, so it's thoroughly ingrained in my brain now and I guess I have a resistance to trying an alternative. This is, of course, why I am playing piano-accordion and not CBA. The CBA tempts me but the keyboard is a big hurdle for me to overcome mentally.

 

[dak]

Hmm, I started playing piano keyboard in 1977, so it's thoroughly ingrained in my brain now and I guess I have a resistance to trying an alternative. This is, of course, why I am playing piano-accordion and not CBA. The CBA tempts me but the keyboard is a big hurdle for me to overcome mentally.

Hey, you are playing double bass, aren't you? Just think of a 20-string viol tuned in minor thirds. That's sort of what a CBA is like. A 3-row CBA is like a two-fret viol of that kind (no redundancy), and a 5-row CBA is like a four-fret viol (several notes can be played on different strings or should I say courses?).

 

[ColoRodney]

As they say, "the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!" I remember decades back, someone came up with a novel new way of notating music that they claimed was highly efficient. I knew it could never catch on (who's going to publish all existing music in a new notation?) and I felt sorry for students who spent time learning to read it. It's like coming up with a new typewriter keyboard layout... Sure, it may have some advantages. But you'll need to cope with the fact that every computer and machine you come across in the world uses Qwerty, so you'll need to know that layout as well. For starters: can anyone buy an inexpensive student-model Kravtsov accordion to learn on, and see if they like it?

 

[Walker]

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For starters: can anyone buy an inexpensive student-model Kravtsov accordion to learn on, and see if they like it?

Good point, I've never seen a Kravtsov accordion for sale. There are no accordion manufacturers in Italy making them either, though Victoria and Ballone Burini did for a while.

I have a feeling I would like it though. They can even play Scottish tunes.


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Hmm, I started playing piano keyboard in 1977, so it's thoroughly ingrained in my brain now and I guess I have a resistance to trying an alternative. This is, of course, why I am playing piano-accordion and not CBA. The CBA tempts me but the keyboard is a big hurdle for me to overcome mentally.

Changing keyboard is a challenge, but apparently not on the Kravtsov keyboard as it is designed to be played straight away by a piano accordion player, as it's the same layout of notes as a PA, but the keys are shaped into a sort of beehive/hexagonal geometry. I have to say I love the black stripe of accidental notes.
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[dak]

But you'll need to cope with the fact that every computer and machine you come across in the world uses Qwerty,

You've not been around a lot, have you? Pretty much every country has its own variation. Not even US and UK have the same layout. The French AZERTY keyboard layout doesn't even have unshifted digits. When my laptop keyboards give up their ghost, I get whatever replacement may be available (often hoping for US layout but rarely getting it). It confuses friends when they figure out that my keyboard layout is US. Some get along better when I switch the layout to German, but others aren't comfortable writing with a German layout on keys that are labelled with Swiss keytops (I think).

 

[Dingo40]

If It aint broke, why fix it?

 

[Ffingers]

Hmm, I started playing piano keyboard in 1977, so it's thoroughly ingrained in my brain now and I guess I have a resistance to trying an alternative. This is, of course, why I am playing piano-accordion and not CBA. The CBA tempts me but the keyboard is a big hurdle for me to overcome mentally.

Try this for size, Rosie:

 

[Ffingers]

If
It's aint broke, why fix it?

That's what my Dad said about the L-head design of the Rover cars!

 

[Rosie C]

Try this for size, Rosie:

"Piano accordionist learns chromatic" sounds exactly what I need, thanks! I'll check out the other videos in the series.

Am I correct thinking that the presenter is playing both a Roland FR-1X and an FR-1XB?

 

[Ffingers]

Try this for size, Rosie:


"Piano accordionist learns chromatic" sounds exactly what I need, thanks! I'll check out the other videos in the series.

Am I correct thinking that the presenter is playing both a Roland FR-1X and an FR-1XB?

It looks like Rosie, although the 'B' is not iscribed on the instrument itself.

 

[Rosie C]

It looks like Rosie, although the 'B' is not iscribed on the instrument itself.

Thanks! and later in the video he calls the PA "FR-1X".

 

[Walker]

If
It's aint broke, why fix it?

Good point Dingo, the classic keyboard design is a wonderful thing. I believe that's a big "pro" of the Kravtsov keyboard - it doesn't seek to repair the classic design...

However, it is easy to forget why the "piano" keyboard exists as it does. I think it's probably interesting to take a step back and try to understand why the "piano" keyboard developed the way it did...

The way I see it, the origin of the classic keyboard design is in the system of modes. For a thousand years "modes" were the framework of Western music. Originally the modes corresponded simply to the white notes of the keyboard. The classic keyboard design is therefore the simplest expression of modes.

To keep it simple, I won't go into subtleties of the Greek or Church modes, but just consider the general concept:

You basically have 7 modes:

Ionian (C to C)
Dorian (D to D)
Phrygian (E to E)
Lydian (F to F)
Mixolydian (G to G)
Aeolian (A to A)
Locrian (B to B)

Every mode may appear to all use the same notes, but the important thing to consider is that the intervals of tones and semitones between the notes in each mode differs. For example, in Ionian mode the intervals of C D E F G A B C are: tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone). Each mode however had it's own sonic character due to the different combination of whole and half notes. Dorian (D to D) has a different combination of tones and semitones etc.

Later on, the black notes were eventually added, and that meant any given mode could be transposed into another part of the keyboard. By having all 12 semitones in place you could, for example, play Lydian mode starting on Bb because all of the building blocks were available to do it.

Also, music a few centuries ago started to move from the modal system to the tonal system. This basically separated "keys" into major and minor and so essentially only the Ionian and Aeolian modes became standard. Unfortunately, some of the colour in music was lost when the modal system was replaced.

Now with the advent of contemporary/atonal music the tonal framework of major and minor keys is no longer dominant in much modern "classical" music. All sorts of avant-garde sounds are created, that are often intentionally without "tune".

So it seems the "piano" keyboard was first developed for modal music, then tonal music and then atonal/chromatic music.

If we look at the Kravtsov keyboard, you can see that the outermost rows are all white notes. Therefore, it follows the modal tradition. At the simplest level it means you can play white note glissandos. On the Kravtsov keyboard the black notes are also placed "behind" the white notes, just like a piano keyboard - to allow for tonal and chromatic/atonal music with classical keyboard fingerings.

But to go back to your initial point @Dingo40... The improvement in the Kravtsov keyboard design is that the outermost edge of the Kravtsov keyboard contains the notes, C D F G A C with the E and B being tucked just behind on smaller white keys. This allows comfortable stretches of up to 2 octaves (in an eleven white key stretch). In some respects, the Kravtsov system gives almost CBA ergonomics, but in a piano key package...

He's quite some guy that Mr Kravtsov...

 

[tcabot]

A few historical points worth mentioning:
Bayan (until ~1960s a 3-row very dry-tuned CBA, then a 4 or 5-row multi register dry-tuned CBA) has been strongly promoted by the Soviet government for most of the 20th century as the perfect instrument of the proletariat. Incredible resources went into establishing bayan education & repertoire training musicians and developing the public interest in the instrument. This has been done as a certain expense of the accordion (wet-tuned PA, which had a capitalist whiff about it. You wouldn't go straight to GULAG for playing one, but it never received any state promotion) and the diatonic harmonika (which was a "folk" box, therefore, has not been considered a "serious" instrument until the very end of the century, and even then, it was specifically the unisonoric "Hromka" version that received the attention). Plenty of propaganda went into making people believe that bayan was invented in Russia. A questionable claim, however there are early historic examples indicating that Russia was at the very cutting edge of free reed development in the 19th century when the early instruments were being designed.

Kravtsov was facing a tough task of trying to augment the accordion keyboard while staying very clear of anything bayan-related so that he wouldn't get lynched by an angry mob of bayan players. Some design decisions, like the shape of the buttons, might have been driven by the desire to be different from the bayan's buttons, rather than ergonomics.
Secondly, one of the key principles behind the Kravtsov keyboard was the compatibility with the PA keyboard fingerings. That is, according to him, the key design principle was so that a professional player could transition the PA repertoire from PA to Kravtsov in a matter of weeks, without having to re-learn the fingerings. This was never designed to replace the CBA or the PA, but rather this was a way of giving the PA players a bit more flexibility. I.e. a very specific task of adding to PA keyboard without subtracting anything from the PA keyboard.
There is, however, no backwards compatibility - once you start using the Kravtsov features, you can't replicate that on the PA, obviously. But afaik, it was not designed to be a "student-level" instrument. You start on PA, then if you can/want, you get the Kravtsov keyboard.
The lack of instruments with this type of keyboard is probably the reason why not many people are playing it. Same reason we're all not playing Moschinos.

 

[debra]

The Kravtsov keyboard is an interesting design, albeit a bit strange. It is essentially a piano keyboard, with the black keys all in one row together. In order to achieve this the two notes between black keys on a piano keyboard: E/F and B/C needed to be reduced in size. So unlike with a CBA or a Uniform (Reuters) keyboard you cannot simply transpose a song by moving your hand.
The sad part of the story is that after the Italians stopped offering accordions with a Kravtsov keyboard only Zonta in Belarus remains. And their quality leaves a lot to be desired. I fixed up the Zonta shown in the video posted by Walker. It had keys that touched (and moved) each other when played. It had warped reed blocks, so the seal of the large reed plates failed, It had odd reed plates (with different reeds on each side)... It really looked like an amateur trying to build their own accordion for which custom parts had to be made (unlike with large CBA bayan plates or plates for PA)... I would not recommend this to anyone, simply because the only supplier of Kravtsov accordions is not good enough.

 

[debra]

Here are a few pictures to illustrate the "quality" of the Zonta Kravtsov accordion...

Reed plate with missing hook.

One side of a reed plate. Watch the reed on the right...

Other side of the reed plate. The "opposite" reed is now on the left. Look how different that reed tongue is on both sides of the same reed plate. Look also at how crudely the holes in the reed plates are made (and how oddly shaped the reeds themselves are).

This shows the bad seal caused by having a "straight" reed plate on a "warped" reed block.
Warped reed blocks do happen on old accordions but shouldn't appear in a brand new one.

In addition to what I fixed the accordion had to be shipped back to the factory when it just arrived, because the fourth row of the keyboard was shifted by one key (thus not being according to the Kravtsov specification).

 

[Walker]

There is indeed a strong association between the Kravtsov accordion and the Piano accordion. Certainly, I recall back in 2008 attending the Coupe Mondiale in Paisley, near Glasgow. I was watching the International Piano accordion competition and one of the competitors was Maria Selezneva, and she was actually playing a Kravtsov accordion. I had known of the keyboard design long before then, but that was the first and only time I've seen a Kravtsov accordion in person. I thought her performance was marvellous. One of the pieces she played was Ave Maria (Piazzolla). It went something like this...

Maria Selezneva:


However nowadays she only plays tiny PAs.



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[debra]

There is indeed a strong association between the Kravtsov accordion and the Piano accordion. Certainly, I recall back in 2008 attending the Coupe Mondiale in Paisley, near Glasgow. I was watching the International Piano accordion competition and one of the competitors was Maria Selezneva, and she was actually playing a Kravtsov accordion. I had known of the keyboard design long before then, but that was the first and only time I've seen a Kravtsov accordion in person. I thought her performance was marvellous. ...​

There is nothing inherently wrong with The Kravtsov keyboard, or with what Zonta has produced in the past. As I have seen only one Zonta "in the flesh" it would be dangerous to generalize, but what I have seen does not bode well. It is quite possible that Zonta has been running into some difficulty due to economic sanctions that are a result of its ties with Russia and other activities "the West" doesn't like.

 

[Walker]

This was never designed to replace the CBA or the PA, but rather this was a way of giving the PA players a bit more flexibility. I.e. a very specific task of adding to PA keyboard without subtracting anything from the PA keyboard.

Fascinating context @tcabot. Kravtsov probably succeeded in his aims then...

The lack of instruments with this type of keyboard is probably the reason why not many people are playing it. Same reason we're all not playing Moschinos.

It is a problem when manufacturers aren't producing this instrument type... I don't think it matters if they are only available on "special order", but it's not so good when nobody in Italy is willing to make them.

As I have seen only one Zonta "in the flesh" it would be dangerous to generalize, but what I have seen does not bode well.

@debra, thankfully you were close at hand to assist with the Zonta. The quality of work on the photo's supplied speaks for itself, but I have a hunch you made a positive difference to the final outcome! If there's one thing I believe you do better than anyone, it's attention to detail!

There is nothing inherently wrong with The Kravtsov keyboard

So here's a question to everyone... Is the treble keyboard of the Kravtsov accordion an improvement over the Piano accordion?

Would anyone here buy a Kravtsov accordion if it were available from an Italian manufacturer?

 

[tcabot]

Mind you, it's not just the treble keyboard - the Kravtsov converter free bass is a mirror image of the treble and supposedly enables some use of the thumb.