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Piano keyboard vs. Kravtsov keyboard

Walker said:
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So here's a question to everyone... Is the treble keyboard of the Kravtsov accordion an improvement over the Piano accordion?

Would anyone here buy a Kravtsov accordion if it were available from an Italian manufacturer?
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I very much doubt that Tim would buy a Zonta with Kravtsov keyboard again, but if Victoria were to make them again he might feel better about it (not to buy one right away, but to know that there was an option should the Zonta need to be replaced some time in the future).
He received the suggestion to switch to Kravtsov from one of his former teachers. He finished the conservatory on piano accordion, but later tried CBA (C-system) for a few years and never felt as comfortable on it as with piano accordion, so Kravtsov was the next thing to try. (And now he is stuck with it for quite some time because he just cannot keep buying new accordions (and had to sell a previous one to fund the Zonta.)
Personally I feel that Kravtsov does not offer enough of an advantage over piano accordion to make it worth it, even if there were more than one manufacturer. The Zonta is the same size as a regular full size bayan, but the Zonta offers just 52 notes (just a few more than large piano accordions) whereas a bayan offers 64 notes. (I believe Victoria only offered 46 or maybe 47 notes in their former Kravtsov offering.)
So really, even with an Italian manufacturer the possibilities of a Kravtsov accordion are pretty close to those of a PA, so you're still missing out on a larger range of notes a CBA offers.
 
Its always argued that piano keyboards have a disadvantage of having the keys far from each other (hard to jump more than one octave for example). This is sort of solved by button accordions and other types like this one. After some levels it seems no one have big problems about that. For example for a concert pianist on piano. But in accordion, risk is always there to land on a wrong key on long jumps if you dont look to the keyboard. This is same on every accordion keyboard but easier on other systems than piano keyboard. Because they are vertically oriented. A lot of interesting things happen after you play an instrument long enough. Some actions becomes reflex. So it may not be different in the end. It is a mechanical coding job, doesnt matter how you coded when learned.
 
Thanks everyone for your thoughts on the Kravtsov accordion. From what I can see, I believe this design, that has been Mr. Kravtsov's raison d'être for over 40 years, is a remarkable achievement. It seems there was a clear vision to create a new piano keyboard to sit beside but not replace the existing piano accordion. This new design seems to be of interest to the advanced accordionist and admits access to new musical ideas that were previously the reserve of the Russian Bayan.

From what I can tell some of Mr Kravtsov's achievements are:

A revised accordion that importantly retains the design features and DNA of the classic keyboard
A new keyboard that follows established piano accordion treble fingerings
A right hand "stretch" of 2 octaves
An instrument with increased compass of up to 55 treble notes (see instrument below) and 58 notes on the left side
A mirror image right and left hand (free bass) design
Stepped left hand side to allow greater thumb access.

Perhaps, at this moment in time the Kravtsov design is still a bit away from achieving the universal recognition that the piano accordion enjoys. If the training of accordion students continues to improve, in time we could see Kravtsov accordionists winning international competitions and becoming concert accordionists. Also, perhaps if manufacturers in Italy or Russia start to make the design available to order this would assist in its development.

I remember as a kid hearing the famous Russian bayanist Oleg Sharov's version of Dream of Autumn by Archibald Joyce. I hadn't heard it for decades, until yesterday...

Ilya Talatin on Kravtsov accordion:
 
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Walker said:
Perhaps, at this moment in time the Kravtsov design is still a bit away from achieving the universal recognition that the piano accordion enjoys.
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Perhaps.

The idea "shrunk piano keyboard" for a better fit on accordion for piano (accordion) players has been tried before in history (here from the thirties) on the bass side: note that Achermann's PA has two added rows of baritone basses arranged like black and white keys on a piano.
achermann.jpg
Morino bullt several instruments of that type, but popularity consigned it to history. One reason might have been that the range was still limited to just mapping non-bass notes, with the bass notes to be played on the Stradella rows. The C system free bass for piano accordion players that has established itself both with additional free bass manuals and (later) converters has room also for the bass notes, allowing them to differ from the Stradella bass notes (like having the Stradella basses couple into chord reeds while not doing so for free bass bass notes).

"Tiny black and white key arrangement" is actually also an underlying concept for several wind instruments with modern mechanics.

In my book, Kravtsov keyboards offer no tangible benefit to CBA players. They try accommodating piano accordion or piano players by alleviating some of the disadvantages of the near-full-size piano keyboard as an accordion controller. But the window of opportunity where they could have picked up in renown or education is over: nobody tries hiding their CBA behind a pseudo piano keyboard for reputational reasons these days, so when people opt for a more scale-appropriate keyboard requiring non-trivial relearning efforts, CBA is a readily available option.
 
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dak said:
In my book, Kravtsov keyboards offer no tangible benefit to CBA players. They try accommodating piano accordion or piano players by alleviating some of the disadvantages of the near-full-size piano keyboard as an accordion controller. But the window of opportunity where they could have picked up in renown or education is over: nobody tries hiding their CBA behind a pseudo piano keyboard for reputational reasons these days, so when people opt for a more scale-appropriate keyboard requiring non-trivial relearning efforts, CBA is a readily available option.
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In less enlightened times the button accordion was heavily supported in Russia at the great expense of the piano accordion's development. Likewise, in the USA the piano accordion was regarded highly and the button accordion was looked down upon. It's sad this is often the way with a musical instrument such as the accordion, that is so often derided by others who are not even accordionists... sometimes it seems like everyone's a critic.

However, nowadays Russia does both the bayan and the piano-accordion rather well, although they do keep them apart. In the great fruit bowl of life, the piano-accordion is pears to the button accordion's apples. Literally, in Russia, if it's got buttons it's not an accordion, it's a bayan - even your granny's cardigan. ;)

So when we consider the development of the Kravtsov keyboard, it's in the context of the development of the piano-accordion. Kravtsov certainly did scale-down the keyboard and the accordion is now receiving some of the research that the bayan was afforded several decades before - but then it's human nature to invent, design, reinterpret etc. in an ongoing cycle.

I think Kravtsov's keyboard might be an interesting development for the 5% of accordionists who want to play more than the piano accordion can offer, but that's quite a limited group, because the piano keyboard is ideal for making so much great music. :D I think it's also a sign of how greatly the piano keyboard is cherished by the likes of Mr. Kravtsov, that he devoted so much effort to develop his new piano accordion within strict classic keyboard parameters.

For the button accordionist the Kravtsov keyboard may just be part of the greater piano-accordion yawn fest - it's just too old fashioned and not hip and isomorphic like the CBA. :ROFLMAO:​
 
Walker said:
For the button accordionist the Kravtsov keyboard may just be part of the greater piano-accordion yawn fest - it's just too old fashioned and not hip and isomorphic like the CBA.
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The CBA is not exactly a newer development than the "old-fashioned" Kravtsov keyboard. The earliest occurence of B system was with the Schrammelharmonika in 1854. That doesn't quite have the flavor of a fly-by-night fad.
 
Dak, you are spoiling me with this wonderful information. The 1854 Schrammelharmonika, a venerable old instrument indeed. Thanks for sharing. I look forward to reading more about it! :)

Of course the Kravtsov is a modern interpretation of the piano-key accordion... but I also like old accordion designs too. You might be interested in this fascinating website about a "precursor" to the piano accordion.

Apparently this instrument was designed circa 1519.

en.leonardoaccordion.com

Biography | Leonardo's Accordion

en.leonardoaccordion.com en.leonardoaccordion.com

They're very proud of "La Fisarmonica di Leonardo" in Italy - what are they like, eh! :)
 
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Funnily enough, not really...

However, in time it might be nice to have a few mementos that represent stages in the development of the accordion. I wouldn't mind having a Sheng for the music room and maybe a miniature model of a da Vinci fisarmonica. I've already got a couple of accordions - a musette PA and a small free bass PA. I'm kinda happy with that, but if an Italian made Victoria Kravtsov accordion turned up on ebay I'd put in a bid...​
 
Hey @kep. Better late than never!

This is a good but very old website now, that I first noticed more years ago than I care to remember. However, sadly it never seems to receive much updating.

Professor N. Kravtsov did write a book entitled Accordion of the 21st Century, which I've been looking for (but unable to obtain). Apparently it goes into the greatest detail with fascinating organological insights that builds from historical (and unusual) keyboards of the past up to his remarkable achievement, the Kravtsov accordion.

While one of the big benefits of the Kravtsov accordion is the opening of bayan repertoire to the piano accordionist, I sometimes feel that this is a double-edged sword. Sure, the ability to allow the PA player to tackle advanced Russian button accordion music is great, but then often this music makes little impact outside of accordion circles and can sometimes even receive quite negative reactions. There was a piece in the Irish Times entitled The accordion has it's day, reviewing an accordion performance of Zolotaryov's 1st Concerto. The article can be viewed online, however, let's just say it's clear not everyone appreciates musical fireworks.

That said, going back to the Kravtsov's keyboard, I think there is something quite magnetic about the aesthetic of the design. I think the polygon-like shapes has something rather natural about it. That may perhaps just be my joint Scottish and Irish heritage coming into play, as I was always amazed by the geometry of the Giant's Causeway that paved a watery track between these kindred lands... To this day I remember the legend of the Giant's Causeway and the tale of Finn McCool (the Irish Giant) and Benandonner (the Scottish Giant)...
​
 
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Walker said:
The article can be viewed online, however, let's just say it's clear not everyone appreciates musical fireworks.
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An accordion is kind of indoors fireworks. Its offerings are similar, some aspects are different, but proper appreciation works mostly in a small setting that can appreciate being served in a more private manner. Take table tennis. It kind of fails as a spectator sport for larger crowds and/or TV not because of a lack of activity but because of being too fast and nimble to register over significant distance or passed through some intermediate medium. So you get more of a select crowd of people interested in it.

In a similar vein, when the large tanker that a symphonic orchestra is manages to make a turn on a dime under the direction of a conductor in spite of all its inertia and gravitas, everybody can marvel at that feat. When a single accordion player runs a slalom parcours through a stash of dimes, it registers like nothing much.
 
Walker said:
That said, going back to the Kravtsov's keyboard, I think there is something quite magnetic about the aesthetic of the design. I think the polygon-like shapes has something rather natural about it.
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Kravtsov explains it in terms of density of keys in a given space, but I agree, it looks nicer than round buttons :)
There is another aspect of Kravtsov's keyboard: the plain surface opens any kind of glides piano buttons keys or buttons newer allowed.
 
kep said:
it looks nicer than round buttons
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I'm fairly sure I never used those precise words. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

It needs the hornet stripe though, gives it a bit of edge... beware the nasty ol' Kravtsov! :cool:

It has an impressive economy of movement though... in scalic passages there is not much hand travel.

The more I listen and learn the more I like it...

 
I think todays times debate is this. There are so much population, and an ability to reach public with digital age, its being hoped that too much people does too much things in many different ways that will compensate with the population. But it does not. We can see that from our YouTube channel views, also in particular from very high inflation and poverty of some classes all over the world. This doesnt work at least today. Being too much divided and branched in thoughts and choices and products doesnt bring harmony or prosperity in any way. There was Snickers and Twix for example, not much varieties but we knew they had chocolate in them. Now a thousand varieties, maybe a little cheaper, but in much less quality.
 
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