Problem with an accordion or lack of bellows technique?

[EuroFolker]

Hello,

I have a brand new, infrequently played Dino Baffetti Professional II (120 bass / 5 reeds, 41 treble / 3 reeds). It seems that on the bass side, the master and the 2 lower registers are very "air hungry" to the point that it is hard to get a key to sound on the treble side and not be "overpowered" by the bass side which uses most of the air.

When the 2 higher bass registers are selected it does not "run out of steam" quite as easily.

The bellows seem near-airtight when no keys are pressed and barely move (like I imagine it should be the case on any brand new accordion?)

Thoughts? Thank you in advance.

 

[dak]

Of course one cannot rule out a leaky/loose reed block without actually looking at the instrument. But it is quite normal for bass registers to suck a lot of air: a 5-reed bass will have 5 reeds sounding on a bass button and 9 reeds sounding on a chord button, and the bass reeds at least are lower than the treble reeds and consequently suck more air.

Dealing with this requires proper bellows technique where the aim is to maintain constant pressure rather than constant bellows travel. A mere LMM accordion with 5 reeds in the bass will not just be tricky to balance with regard to air use but also with regard to loudness. I would not be surprised if the bass were built and tuned in a manner where its volume remains decent; but that does not affect the air usage significantly.

 

[Dingo40]

How do play your basses, legato or staccato?
Playing legato (as written) does require a lot of air.
If, in addition, you play slowly (as in still feeling your way), you'll soon run out of air.
Try playing the higher couplers in both hands, playing staccato in the bass.
Also, try the drop test on the bellows , let's know how long the bellows take to fully open under gravity alone (no notes sounding).

 

[Glug]

Drop Test

From http://accordionrevival.com/ACCORDION_REPAIR1.php#Air_Leaks

"To find out if your leak is internal or external, measure the amount of time it takes the bellows to close under its own weight from the full open position with all valves closed.

If the bellows takes less than 35 seconds to close, it has some external air leaks, as nearly all accordions do."

 

[dak]

Also, try the drop test on the bellows , let's know how long the bellows take to fully open under gravity alone (no notes sounding).

The bellows seem near-airtight when no keys are pressed and barely move (like I imagine it should be the case on any brand new accordion?)

So the drop test appears not to apply here.

 

[EuroFolker]

The used accordion I mostly use for practicing (not to add wear and tear to the new one while I am learning, lol) does not have airtight bellows but does not use as much air when playing bass chords (legato). The new one is under warranty but it would be a long trip back to the dealer.

 

[dak]

The used accordion I mostly use for practicing (not to add wear and tear to the new one while I am learning, lol) does not have airtight bellows but does not use as much air when playing bass chords (legato). The new one is under warranty but it would be a long trip back to the dealer.

Well, you can have problems like missing valves or loose reed plates (but it's unusual for modern instruments to put down a nail for fixing a reed plate before waxing it). A loose reed block would typically also get reeds sounding that are the wrong pitch.

So I consider it super unlikely that this is a warranty case. Try making a video maybe?

Here is a video about the issue, grantedly done with a worse mismatch than 3/5 reeds. If I remember correctly, the drastic examples are close to the end.



By the way: what is your lowest bass note? Typical candidates are E, F, G, A, and even C. The lower the lowest note, the less it will interfere with the treble melody (when using appropriate registers) and the more air it will guzzle.

 

[Squeezeplay]

You say you have a Dino Baffetti with a problem, then show us a
Hohner

 

[EuroFolker]

I’ll have to find out what the lowest note is. I think at this point, I’ll put the used accordion aside and use the Dino exclusively, to get used to it more before attempting to troubleshoot further.

 

[EuroFolker]

You say you have a Dino Baffetti with a problem, then show us a
Hohner

That is a sharp observation! Glad someone is paying attention - LOL

 

[dak]

How do play your basses, legato or staccato?
Playing legato (as written) does require a lot of air.

Playing staccato also requires offsetting the air use with proper travel. Suspending the treble note because of a large air use by the bass is wrong regardless of whether we are talking about short or long bass note articulation. You have to be prepared to make up for the large bass air use whether it is for a short or longer time.

 

[Ventura]

if the artist has to compensate by altering their play significantly just to accommodate
the design weakness of an instrument,

well, if it were me, then i personally would take it out back and shoot it

 

[dak]

if the artist has to compensate by altering their play significantly just to accommodate
the design weakness of an instrument,

well, if it were me, then i personally would take it out back and shoot it

The only instruments for which air usage is independent of what buttons you press are most Rolands (not sure how the 8x magnetic valve works, and the Bugari Evo has at least treble pallets admitting air). Dealing with air use is a reality of accordion play. Sorry for tooting my horn here, but my recent "I Did That!" upload with Oblivion showcases this kind of work (fast forwarding to where I am making my point):



After the initial pickup phrase, there is one long high note with a crescendo (right pinky). What else happens? There is some kind of intermittent parallel phrase in the treble below that. There is a bass note that dies out (and consequently uses less air over time). In the middle of the measure a chord comes (and obviously uses more air). All those other things have different and changing air uses, and the high note stays as a consistent note that keeps getting louder and is not affected by all the other stuff that happens.

That's not magic. It is the result of practising to deal with varying air use by maintaining consistent pressure even when the bellows travel keeps getting affected by other notes. Not saying that I manage to make this work consistently, but I do try with some results to show for the effort.

If the artist thinks that their instrument should consume the same amount of air independent of how many notes are sounding, it is not the instrument that needs to be taken back out and shot. Acoustic accordions have to obey the limitations of physics.

 

[Ventura]

what you show makes sense of course

so let me put it this way

adjusting my squeeze is a natural thing, no extra thought process needed,
no special technique acquired from targeted practice through necessity
brought on by an instrument falling short of "normal and acceptable"

i play a wide range of accordions from a 15" keyboard 2 reed Hohner
through assorted Pro Excelsiors even including an accordiana and 3 reed musette Guilietti custom
to a modern Fisitlia, Rolands, 3/4 size Scandalli, and of course the Gola
in my regular rotation, with an Atlantic, a Victoria, a Dallape, a Tonaveri a Baton
a Serenelli and many others in the occasional use category

none of these accordions has ever forced me to pause and consciously
make an adjustment in squeeze technique whatsoever, so i guess i simply
cannot imagine an accordion being so poorly constructed as to force me into
this kind of situation.. i wouldn't care if it was a Bafetti or a Beltuna, i would
take it out back and shoot it.. to me that is an unacceptable level of quality,
and is the definition of an accordion shaped object..

this is purely from my perspective of course, and that if i personally were
to somehow become the owner of such an accordion, like if i bought
a Rosetti or some such off eBay for some ungodly reason and then realized
it didn't deserve the title "accordion" i actually would eliminate it's existence
from the earth since i wouldn't pass something substandard onto anyone else
(and i can afford to make a bonfire out of dollar bills occasionally)
but that's just me

an accordion that is " "air hungry" to the point that it is hard to get a key to sound on the treble "
falls into my accordion shaped object category

 

[EuroFolker]

Not sure about your definition of accordion shaped object, I bought it from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer based on his personal recommendation for the best quality starter accordion. But perhaps I should have talked to an all-knowing, prolific Internet poster first, to make sure I would not need to take to the backyard and destroy something I paid good money for.

 

[Dingo40]

"I have a brand new, infrequently played Dino Baffetti Professional II (120 bass / 5 reeds, 41 treble / 3 reeds)."
A good maker and more than ample specifications for the purpose .

I bought it from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer based on his personal recommendation for the best quality starter accordion.

That's great!
So, everyone should be satisfied!

 

[Ventura]

hey Euro

oh i personally have no real knowledge of bafetti products

and generally from your posts it seems you are on a good trajectory,
you are trying and progressing, and really i was simply taking your
"air hungry" to the point that... statement as accurate meaning the problem
is with the instrument.

if you are really stuck with it and there is no recourse, can always
put better reeds in the dang thing at least.. don't shoot it on my account !

who the heck is Dino Bafetti anyhow ? are they famous for anything in particular
type of accordion ? i only ever saw some smaller extreme bling button bafetti's
in Italy years ago.. never touched one..

 

[EuroFolker]

The manufacturer:



The accordion:



Supposedly it came with the "hand made reeds" upgrade option compared to the same, base model.

 

[Ventura]

nice vids.. you were convinced !

in both vids we see a Provino on the floor being used..
nice to see.. there is a Pin Vise in use (was just mentioned in a different thread)
a bit much Asian Mahogany plywood for me, but they do show
some models using aluminum baffle plates
a huge percentage of segments of the "build" appear to be from scratch
even reeds on site made by hand and still $1000 bling per accordion
so these are like $10,000 and up ?

 

[PhiliGol]

Not sure about your definition of accordion shaped object, I bought it from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer based on his personal recommendation for the best quality starter accordion. But perhaps I should have talked to an all-knowing, prolific Internet poster first, to make sure I would not need to take to the backyard and destroy something I paid good money for.

Hi Folker
Sorry to hear that the instrument you selected finally doesn’t please you. Since you said it’s brand new and under warranty I’d simply return it for repair or trade-in. As you have the comparison with your daily-rehearsal box it sounds you feel very uncomfortable with the new one. No one in the forum will be able to change your personal uncomfortness. Though it’s an effort my recommendation is to go back to the dealer return that one and test other instruments. For a preselection on the type of your desired instrument (unless you exactly know what you want and are very decided) the web might help you. I wouldn’t rely a lot on recommendations for a specific brand.l