Problem with an accordion or lack of bellows technique?

[EuroFolker]

Ventura, the price point of this one was about half that (US dollars).

PhilGol, I am not unhappy with it. It looks and sounds good and feels like a good quality instrument. Certainly miles ahead in build quality than Roland FR1x which is going back and being replaced with an Italian made FR4x (another thread).

I was able to get through the technical exercise that brought this air depletion to light, by starting with the bellows 1/3 open, rather than fully closed at the start of exercise. Not sure if this is “compensation” I shouldn’t be doing.

 

[Dingo40]

I may be wrong but, looking at the video of the company's professional playing the accordion, it looks to me as though he changes bellows direction every two (or three at most) measures. Which isn't a lot of measures.
So, perhaps what you're experiencing is normal for the make?
Perhaps it would be useful to raise your concerns with your vendor?

 

[EuroFolker]

I may be wrong but, looking at the video of the company's professional playing the accordion, it looks to me as though he changes bellows direction every two (or three at most) measures. Which isn't a lot of measures.
So, perhaps what you're experiencing is normal for the make?
Perhaps it would be useful to raise your concerns with your vendor?

What I didn’t mention, it’s the Silvester Stallone edition, comes with a free workout plan for Rambo arms

 

[Dingo40]

I'm hoping Paul Debra gives us his take on this matter !

 

[debra]

I'm hoping Paul Debra gives us his take on this matter !

There isn't very much to add to what's already said, and without a good look inside to notice obvious faults...
The low bass notes may be voiced to avoid choking and to play loudly, by having quite a large gap between the tip of the reed and the reed plate.
Voicing reeds is always a balance between making the opening large enough to avoid choking and making it small enough to get the reed to start at low air pressure. A side effect of voicing is that the larger the gap the louder the reed plays (and the smaller the gap the softer it gets, at the same air pressure). So the loud bass may just be how this instrument was built... Another strong argument for a "try before you buy" approach to buying an instrument.

 

[dak]

Ventura, the price point of this one was about half that (US dollars).

PhilGol, I am not unhappy with it. It looks and sounds good and feels like a good quality instrument. Certainly miles ahead in build quality than Roland FR1x which is going back and being replaced with an Italian made FR4x (another thread).

I was able to get through the technical exercise that brought this air depletion to light, by starting with the bellows 1/3 open, rather than fully closed at the start of exercise. Not sure if this is “compensation” I shouldn’t be doing.

Neither do I. But you have to take into account that bass air use for chord buttons on a 5-reed bass can easily exceed a factor of 3 between different registrations. Also with the bass notes. When you have a 3-reed treble (and you probably rarely use the full Master as registration), the main air use will be the bass.

Bass air use (and loudness) can be moderated by playing only short notes (your "a mano" option will help with the reeds responding fast enough to still make an audible impact), and another thing you can do particularly with the single bass notes is throttling long notes after the initial onset by reducing the button depression depth. The recent "Tanti Anni Prima" "I did that!" video from me does this a lot with a repeated long C bass note (again, don't expect a totally consistent performance front to end) that I try to play in a gong-like manner, not letting it die off completely before it gets rejuvenated.

When it works, a rather effective technique: it reduces air use and helps with balance issues while allowing to register a profound bass sound. Stuff like that is low-hanging: as opposed to high-speed virtuousity, you get rewards pretty soon, and it pays to work on committing it to muscle memory.

 

[EuroFolker]

Another strong argument for a "try before you buy" approach to buying an instrument.

Totally the thing to do when I am ready for the next accordion In my case get on the plane and fly across Canada or drive 3 days to get to the closest shops

 

[debra]

Totally the thing to do when I am ready for the next accordion In my case get on the plane and fly across Canada or drive 3 days to get to the closest shops

You're in Alberta, right? Then you should pay a visit to Edwin Erickson in Buck lake, (not very far south-west from Edmonton).
He can give you all the advice you need and is a very skilled accordion repairer (with over 40 years of experience).

 

[tcabot]

Stradella does suck a lot of life out of the right hand side, but if you think that there's something wrong, there probably is a technical issue. Could be a warped reed block for example.

 

[Squeezeplay]

Where in Alberta are you eurofolker ?

 

[JerryPH]

Supposedly it came with the "hand made reeds" upgrade option compared to the same, base model.

ok, take a look at that video… I would not have as immediately noticed but I put down the iPad for a sec and just listened… it’s rare that hitting the bass notes hit so hard that it impacts the volume of the right hand… musically speaking, that kinda made me feel the equivalent of vertigo.

It’s a heavy balance problem, the bass side seems incredibly inefficient. Anyone else see/feel the same or is it time I start to take my old man meds?

 

[Ventura]

i still say when an accordion turns on it's Master,
it should be put down,
even if it has a cute name

once they get a taste for...

 

[JerryPH]

I just came up from playing my old Scandalli Brevette and tried ti recreate that effect of the right hand waving with hte bass. I could not recreate it playing normally. I then came back and looked at this video, noted some characteristics and then went back down to try that.

I can now recreate it almost perfectly... but won't do that again. It may not be the accordion just a super bad habit from the player. Watch carefully it happens only on the pull and to do that the player jerks the left hand in time to his bass. It's just a real bad habit. An accordion bellows will fall faster when you add the bass, that is normal, BUT if the pull is steady, the volume of the right hand stays perfectly even. As far as amount of air, yeah, still could be a bass section that inherently needs more than normal air or has more reeds than one is used to or the gaskets are bad (thats easy to test).

My vote is on playing technique and simply trying to compare apples and oranges with different accordions and vastly different air needs.

In terms of a sound imbalance, listen to it from the FRONT, not the playing position.

 

[EuroFolker]

ok, take a look at that video… I would not have as immediately noticed but I put down the iPad for a sec and just listened… it’s rare that hitting the bass notes hit so hard that it impacts the volume of the right hand… musically speaking, that kinda made me feel the equivalent of vertigo.

It’s a heavy balance problem, the bass side seems incredibly inefficient. Anyone else see/feel the same or is it time I start to take my old man meds?

I *think* I got it from the same place where you send your accordions for a checkup. He keeps these models in stock, maybe next time you're there you can try one out and give me your valuable opinion

 

[dak]

ok, take a look at that video… I would not have as immediately noticed but I put down the iPad for a sec and just listened… it’s rare that hitting the bass notes hit so hard that it impacts the volume of the right hand… musically speaking, that kinda made me feel the equivalent of vertigo.

He gives the accordion a rhythmic jerk on the beat that just sort-of coincides with the bass button usage. When that jerk abates, there is a hole, probably depending somewhat on the release timing of the bass button, but the play is jerky enough that it might even subsist without involving the bass. It's not exactly a bellows technique approach lending itself to classical music…

 

[Squeezeplay]

I just came up from playing my old Scandalli Brevette and tried ti recreate that effect of the right hand waving with hte bass. I could not recreate it playing normally. I then came back and looked at this video, noted some characteristics and then went back down to try that.

I can now recreate it almost perfectly... but won't do that again. It may not be the accordion just a super bad habit from the player. Watch carefully it happens only on the pull and to do that the player jerks the left hand in time to his bass. It's just a real bad habit. An accordion bellows will fall faster when you add the bass, that is normal, BUT if the pull is steady, the volume of the right hand stays perfectly even. As far as amount of air, yeah, still could be a bass section that inherently needs more than normal air or has more reeds than one is used to or the gaskets are bad (thats easy to test).

My vote is on playing technique and simply trying to compare apples and oranges with different accordions and vastly different air needs.

In terms of a sound imbalance, listen to it from the FRONT, not the playing position.

I think you are right on, the movement of the bass side it coincides with pressing the bass buttons. Bass movement is very jerky, every time a button is pressed the bellows is kinda jerked.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Have you had a pro-level/master-level/teacher-level player sit down with it and put it through its paces in an extended workout? Someone who's not connected to the shop or dealer it came from? It might be helpful to get a second opinion.

As I understand it, you're not saying treble notes won't play at all when you fire the basses on all cylinders--you're saying treble notes are overpowered or drowned out, or sapped? I've encountered this here and there when the treble is set on M or even MM at times. I just play the basses less duration, or lighten the bass register, or switch the treble to Master.

Sometimes you do encounter complaints that a specific make/model has basses that crush the treble. I've seen this comment repeatedly about Saltarelle CBAs. Which come to think of it were last I heard made by Dino Baffetti. When I've heard this as characteristic of model, it's been a model with TAM or hand reeds in the bass--I think I've seen like comments about this or that Pigini.


I suggest you have an experienced and able player take it for a spin and get
perspective and input from another source before deciding on your next move.

 

[dak]

I suggest you have an experienced and able player take it for a spin and get
perspective and input from another source before deciding on your next move.

This.

 

[EuroFolker]

This.

"I suggest you have an experienced and able player take it for a spin and get
perspective and input from another source before deciding on your next move."

I totally agree that is the very best course of action. Just a matter of finding someone within a reasonable distance, I am working on it.

 

[dak]

"I suggest you have an experienced and able player take it for a spin and get
perspective and input from another source before deciding on your next move."

I totally agree that is the very best course of action. Just a matter of finding someone within a reasonable distance, I am working on it.

Next best thing would be a video session. If you haven't found someone to work with by next Wednesday, I'll be back home with access to my own instrument and we can try talking things over and trying them out at the level you are at.