Push / Pull reed?

[losthobos]

I've a slow starting reed on the pull of the bellows....
If I take reedblock out to tweak which reed is push and which is pull....ie is pull on top and push inside or vice versa
Thanks

 

[debra]

I've a slow starting reed on the pull of the bellows....
If I take reedblock out to tweak which reed is push and which is pull....ie is pull on top and push inside or vice versa
Thanks

Pull reed is always on the inside of the reed block and push reed on the outside.
(So alas when the reed is slow on pull it's harder to see the possible voicing problem.)

 

[JerryPH]

The good news is that most of the time a reed that was functioning well in the past and suddenly starts being less responsive, then it is most likely due to dust or some obstruction. Often just raising the reed edge and "pinging" it and/or a compressed can of air is enough to dislodge and clean it out.

 

[Ventura]

you say you problem is a slow starting reed

so it is possible that can simply mean the usual amount of air is not
reaching the reed the way it used to

this can be from various "leaks" in and around that reed area,
such as the wax has cracked and is not sealing fully, or
the leather flap that pulls CLOSED against the outside reed
is curled/stiff/not seating correctly.

in other words, when the air pressure is pulling, if it also
pulls through cracked wax leaks or the adjacent reed, then
the full amoiunt of air pressure does not reach the intended reed,
which needs a certain minimum amount of air to start nicely

 

[losthobos]

Ok , this is starting to really hurt now....any ideas as to what's going on...
I've taken block out, pinked reed a few times, levered up towards valve a little, checked valve inside reed block...
With block out I can blow and suck and sounds uniform....
Soon as I put block back in and reassemble I'm greatest by this shitting sound.... especially when played soft...infact soft is impossible..

New video by Terry St George

photos.app.goo.gl

Any wisdom gratefully received

 

[debra]

You have a valve problem. When you pull gently one of the valves, probably the outside one is fluttering, but when you pull harder the airflow is strong enough to keep the valve completely open.
The reason you don't hear this when you blow into or suck onto the reed block is that the direction of the air pressure is reversed (from what it is inside the accordion). Let me explain (in case it isn't clear): when you pull air is sucked into the bellows, meaning that the sucking is done by the bellows on the inside of the accordion and the air goes through the hole in the reed block. To play the same reed on the reed block alone you blow air into the hole instead of letting the accordion such air into the hole from the inside. It is this reversal of the pressure that makes it hard to really test reed voicing and valves.

 

[losthobos]

Thankyou....so the outside valve needs replacing or softening ..
but not necessary to add booster spring which I assume would amplify the problem...
I understand the reversal airflow concept

 

[John Doe]

You have a valve problem. When you pull gently one of the valves, probably the outside one is fluttering, but when you pull harder the airflow is strong enough to keep the valve completely open.

A nicely worded fully coherent explanation of something that plagues many "OK" been sitting forever accordions.

so the outside valve needs replacing or softening ..
but not necessary to add booster spring which I assume would amplify the problem...

Valves are cheap and an outside valve is very easy to replace- the only real hazard is accidentally getting whatever adhesive you use on the reed toungue (usually the neighboring toungue!). Just replace the darned thing.

Rolling the valve to limber it up, pulling it over the edge of a table to flatten it, creasing it to make it stiffer and flat... just replace the darned thing.

Adding booster springs to a valve that doesn't have one might help keep it closed... but the companion reed will almost certainly wind up sounding slightly flat on the push. "Just replace the ..."

 

[losthobos]

Thank you all for speedy responses....valves and glue ordered from CGM music this morning

 

[JKJ]

Thank you all for speedy responses....valves and glue ordered from CGM music this morning

I found a CGM Music Services located in Scotland. If living in the USA is that the best place to order or is there a reputable dealer for such parts in the US?

JKJ

 

[Ben-jammin]

I found a CGM Music Services located in Scotland. If living in the USA that the best place to order or is there a reputable dealer for such parts in the US.

I don’t know if they are the best but I get alot of these kind of parts from Bossetto accordions. I just try hard to buy a lot at once to keep shipping cost reasonable.

 

[losthobos]

Alas ....I have replaced the valve on the outside of the reed block as suggested but to no avail...
Any ideas as to what I should try next gratefully received...
The wax looks absolutely fine and no leaking there or looseness to reedplate.
It is the pull reed that is problematic...
Perplexed I am
Thanks

 

[Ventura]

Its all about the air flow

now look at the appropriate key valve under the grille

sometimes if the leather gets half loose from the felt/foam backing
it droops and partly obstructs the air flow on the pull

do you have any rolling papers left from when you were a teen ?
slip one under the reedblock at the problem area and see if you can pull it out
after fastening the block down (indicatiing warpage or mis-alignment)

between this reed and the ones adjacent, it is very narrow and hard
to inspect the wax so i might suggest a warmed, fairly dull long knife
like a grapefruit knife.. heat it just enough to touch melt the wax slowly
so it re-seals nicely between the reedplates

do the bottom edge too near the rivet

if you have a bit of spare reedwax, you could risk slicing the reed out and
flipping it over and waxing it back in to see if the problem is for sure
an airflow issue or just a voodoo curse

be gentle

good luck

 

[colinm]

Ah, at last somebody admitting it,s not all science

 

[losthobos]

@Ventura Ok....tried cigarette paper....can pull out but takes a lot of force to do so..
Applied hot knife to wax to remelt....this has settled another note but
Now the original B pull problem is still there...along with a slight fluttering on the push that wasn't there before...
Would you have this gypsy voodoo woman's address so I can pop round and set fire to her caravan..
I have no accordion wax/resin but I do have some pure beeswax from my hives....

 

[Ventura]

hmmm...

any Violin players nearby ? Fiddlers always have a stick of Bow rosin
and you can shave a bit off for a small batch, and add a bit of
volatile something if you need a bit more softness or a few drops of Linseed oil

for the reedblock itself, if you feel there could be less gap
(the paper would have ripped instead of pulling free)
you can possibly adjust the hold-down on the end of the reedblock
JUST a smidgen.. repeat paper test.. if worse, back off the adjustment
and add a super thin shim piece on the ledge of the other end where it slips
under something for the hold down.. a reedblock must put equal downward
pressure along it's entire bottom length or it can cause a pinch on
one end that can grab the shift slider

one can also check the flatness of the entire reedblock bottom with
an appropriate dead-sure-edged piece of Metal, and if there is
any bit of bend or gap, then a very fine piece of sandpaper glued to
a dead flat surface and gentle long-stroke sanding for a bit

if you have something soft that would raise the "nap" just a bit
of the leather gasket gasket that sits under the reedblock that might
help the overall seal, but very very carefully of course as the thin cross
bits of the leather need to stay in place.. possible a medium stiff
picture painters brush ? or one of those Eraser brushes the kids
have on the end of a stick to brush the bits off the paper ?

obviously some of these possible "Fixes" are not reversible, so careful and
minute changes are all we want if you attempt them

next, draw a pentagram on your workbench and light a candle to Artemis
in hopes she will drive the Gipsy spell away.. also hop on one foot
whilst you light the candle

 

[John Doe]

light a candle to Artemis

Recommend Apollo myself....

 

[debra]

Sorry to hear the valve replacement has not fixed the problem. There are so many possible causes...
The reed plate may not be held in place firmly by the wax. Remelting the wax should cure this (temporarily, until you can afford a complete rewaxing job). It's also possible that the reed tongue is a bit loose. With a hammer and anvil you can improve the grip of the rivet with a few good knocks. And then, just because a valve is new doesn't mean it won't flutter. The valve needs to be the right size, the right strength, and offer an evolution of the resistance from piano to forte that keeps the reed vibrating at the same frequency...

 

[losthobos]

Valve correct size, ordered assortment and found same size and thickness....
Tried tightening everything....gonna borrow some rosin if poss and try resetting reed...
If all fails I'm hoping Emilio Allodi is gonna be kind and let me send him the treble half for full service...
I like this accordion...it may only be student model but has great tone, lightweight and would play with feather fingers if I didn't have ham fists...

 

[losthobos]

Ok...three weeks of pouncing about and fettling inside accordion and problem resolved....
Solution was to change inside valve....
Fiddly finger curling mission accomplished
Thankyou to everyone that helped with suggestions...tried them all and learnt a lot...
Now thankfully back to playing...