putting 'lift' into dance music

[JerryPH]

If I met a classically trained player I would be so overawed I would be all thumbs!
Does that mean that if I played something, and someone very good at music transcribed it accurately into written music and a talented accordionist played it back correctly as per the dots, it would sound just like me playing it? Can written music be THAT accurate if its written and played correctly?

Of course not, people are not computers, there will always be tiny variations from person to person... but if you gave the same piece of music to 10 people, you *would* tell who played it best within the definitions of the music as it was written down. That is the essence of what every music competition within a classically defined system at a conservatory is and is also the essence of how people are graded and are given awards, and eventually even music degrees. To some ths means nothing, to others it is everything and to most, well, they swing a little to one side or another.

I am sincerely sorry, I did not want to drag this fine thread down. I will shut my mouth now... Metaphorically speaking.

My apologies to you, George.

 

[Howie]

Does that mean that if I played something, and someone very good at music transcribed it accurately into written music and a talented accordionist played it back correctly as per the dots, it would sound just like me playing it? Can written music be THAT accurate if its written and played correctly?

Both written language and music have limitations. Shakespeare wrote to be or not to be. We know what the words are - but how should they be spoken? Its up to the actor to interpret and perform. And so it is with music. We have the exact notes that Beethoven wrote for all his music, but listen to two different recordings of any of his symphonies and youll hear different interpretations. People argue about how it should be played but no-one is around to tell us exactly how Beethoven played his music. We can (and should) always bring something of ourselves to a piece even if we didnt write it and its been played a million times before.

I never play a piece exactly as written, Im forever stealing a bit of time from one note for another, or putting emphasis where its not written. Classical players do this all the time too - Chopin wrote music very suited to Rubato, each pianists idea of playing Rubato is different. These things cant be written precisely into the music. Many classical pieces include a Cadenza - make up your own music and put it here.

Very interesting topic, closely related to putting lift into dance music. Your way of adding lift will be different to someone else, because were humans playing music.

 

[george garside]

In the interest of maintaining a modicum of 'thread drift'- in my experience it is the lower echelons of the classical school that can get hung up about playing precisely as writ whilst the upper echelons have the confidence and skills to add that special something to what the dots indicate.

I used to go to a folk music session to which a classicaly trained violinist attended and her idea of folk music was simply to play louder and faster. On one occasion her husband aslo came and he was lead violinist in aa well known national orchestra. I thought 'oh dear' or words to that effect. He was brilliant - he just listened to a tune first time thought ( the convention is to play tunes 3 times through) then came in at the start of the second time through with all the 'folk' nuances, twiddles etc that the person who started the tune was playing.

Interestingly the Music department at Newcastle University have for many years run a Degree in Folk Music course with considerable success and in great demand. and its turned out some brilliant musicians.

Time to shut up and let the thread drift back to putting lift into dance music. All dance music and not just Scottish and other 'folk' music requires LIFT.

george

 

[rancoman]

Oh dear - I feel as though I just poked a stick into a hornet's nest! Not my intention, and I'm grateful to Jerry for explaining that bit so clearly - now I understand a lot better.

Really, what I took from it most of all is that our music is personal - we play it (or try to play it) in a style WE like or think is best. How do we decide that? Obviously it's personal, but I suspect it comes from listening to others - recordings of good players and bands we hear when we are beginning. Some we will like more than others - maybe we subconsciously try to imitate the ones we liked best in those formative years?

When I was a beginner, my local mentor was an old man who played a Salas Stradella two row chromatic, and he had SO much 'lift'. He used lots of 'deedles' and grace notes, and I suspect that's why I do now - I may be subconsciously trying to create a 'button box' sound with my piano accordion.

That takes us neatly back to the thread - how can we best help others to achieve 'lift'? Can we do it with words, or do we need to demonstrate? I would like to hear some views from those reading the thread but who have not yet posted - how can we help YOU?

 

[george garside]

I think Jimmy Shands recommendation of ''watch the dancers and it sort of comes back to you'' is in many ways the key to getting the right amount of lift for any particular type of dancing. I also agree totally with Rancomans notion of listening to good dance musicians/bands and in this day of youtube vids its very easy to try toplay along with various artists of your choosing.

My main experience of dance music is playing for ceilidhs, hoe downs, barn dances or whatever you want to call them. However on one occasion I was put completely 'on the spot' and maybe quite near to being in the 'SHoneT'!

I was booked to play for a ceilidh in a church hall where few if any were used to ceilidh dancing in which case a 'caller' is essential. Unfortunately the caller didn't turn up!. I tried walking people through dances then playing the music but it was chaotic and clearly not working. Then a voice from the back of the hall shouted can't you play something we can jive to. The only tune I couold think of that I could bash out was Lonne Donegans ' sweet sixteen/putting on the style or whatever its called. so I set off with a travesty of the tune , never having played it before - a few people got up and started jiving so I watched then like a hawk and adjusted the rhythm to what they were doing. soon almost everybody in the hall was up happily dancing/jiving or whatever. Then having established the right rhythm by watching the best dancers I was stuck for other 'jive' tunes and s0rt of followed my nose and went into Ken John Peel - yes the jive rhythm fitted it, then came 'in and out the windows'.

I played jive stuff using ceilidh type tunes with adjusted rhythm on the hoof all evening chucking in a few 'old tyme' waltzes here and there playing 'singy tunes' like daisy daisy, oh dear what can the matter be, home on the range, wild colonial boy, etc.

The floor was full of dancers doing their own thing and I finished up actualy enjoying it once the feeling of utter panic subsided!

so playing to the feet , and in this case the waggling backsides, of the dancers really does give you the lift they need for a good dance.

george

 

[JEBrown]

I've just read through this whole thread and I'm very interested by the references to 'dunt', which I've never heard of before (but then I'm classically trained ). I play accordion with a ceilidh band with fiddlers and guitarists and a guy on the bodran. The violinsts are very good, but do tend just to play faster to liven things up. The problem with guitars is you don't get a continuous sound, and in very fast music they tend to play only on the off-beat. So they were very happy to have me come along and play to make the sound more 'authentic' and to give the emphasis of a bass note on the beat.

I started off only playing accompaniment, but now I can manage to play melody and accompaniment at the same time (as long as the fiddler isn't playing crazy fast!) and I've started to experiment with changing the rhythm and emphasis to add 'lift' and bounce and whatever else you want to call it. I like the concept of dunt very much and will look into that more. I've just started in the last few months to have enough confidence in my bellows control to use that to provide emphasis. In particular when changing from one tune to another I like to give a bit of an 'oomph' to the dominant-7th chord which usually provides the link between two keys.

I've found that moving away from a simple oom-cha beat can be effective, and, as someone mentioned, slightly altering the length of the notes in the bar can also help to give life to the music. I drop out of playing the melody in some tunes and pick up in others or on repeats, which again gives a boost to the music. Or alternatively I just play certain parts of the melody: there's one tune with repeated octave leaps (I don't have it in front of me and don't remember the name, sorry) and in that I just play the octave jumps (with a grace note on the top note) while the fiddler plays the continuous melody. This again makes for some variation. Some of the arrangements we use have two melody lines, which can be fun to play and again provide variation.

Last weekend we were playing at a wedding and I was having fun playing around a bit in the Orcadian Strip the Willow. Suddenly the fiddler's E string broke half way through a tune and I suddenly had to switch into playing the melody 'properly' while she grabbed her spare fiddle! Little events like that also add a frisson to any live performance!

 

[george garside]

I was talking to the late Will Atkinson shand morino player and magician on the 'mouthie' and he said something on the lines of '' if you havn't got their feet tapping you have got it badly wrong''. I thought ''I know that'' and he being something of a thought reader said - ''No not just the dancers but also those 'sitting out' ''.

That was a very valuable 30 second lesson indeed!

george

 

[rancoman]

It seems 'dunt' is a peculiarly Scottish word, so a little explanation might help. It's an old word, and would be slang or dialect, so finding it in a dictionary might be tricky.

The closest I can come to one-word alternatives might be 'jolt' or 'knock' - it implies a very short sudden movement, although not necessarily a big one - you can have a little dunt or a big dunt - I think the abruptness and short duration is the key in the context we are discussing here. Just a sudden increase in volume caused by jerking the left arm to instantly boost the volume of a particular note or notes.

Hope that helps :ch

 

[george garside]

indeed! The ability to use the bellows other than as a big air pump is one that is sadly lacking for many box players . The bellows are the very soul of a box andj the ability to 'highlight' an individual note whilst playing slowly or at a decent lick is something that everybody should try to get the hang of as it can transform playing for all types of music besides dance music.
The other crucial ingredient is to get he hang of playing the bass lightly but not with a continuous 'um pa' or, 'um pa pa,' going turgidly throughout the proceedings. This can be done with either very simple bass harmony eg 3 chord trick, or with fancy harmony if preferred. Simple little , on the hoof, variations such as instead of playing bass/chord, bass/ chord etc playing bass/chord, counterbass' chord/ bass chord etc can also add to the 'dunt'

The bass should not be the main provider of the rhythm which should be inherent in the way the melody is played i.e enough rhythm in the melody to get feet tapping. The bass can then provide an additional layer of rhythm with a third layer coming from the musical use of the bellows

george

 

[rancoman]

You REALLY make me think, George. I've been doing these accordion playing things you describe automatically for years, and now you're making me look at all the little components of playing (that we do without thinking) as individual tasks and it blows my mind!

I think you're spot-on with the concept that rhythm comes FIRSTLY from the right hand melody. I could easily visualise playing for dancers only using my right hand, and the rhythm and lift would still be there. In fact, in a band setup, the left reeds of the accordion are rarely heard at all unless the balance of sound is wrong. Originally, fiddles or pipes would have been the only or lead instrument - melody only of course like our right hand - and they had no lack of lift. Not being a fiddler, I assume they achieve the lift and variation in volume by bow action being harder or softer?

How on earth does a piper achieve lift? The bellows (bag) pressure MUST be constant or all the reeds and drones go wrong. Must be adjusting the length of the notes by making them shorter or longer? Do we have a piper on the forum who can tell us?

What we do with our bellows, and I include all of us from the newest player to the virtuosos, is control the volume. That SOUNDS simple - squeeze harder and it gets louder. BUT, and it's a HUGE 'but', even that is not as simple as it sounds.

To illustrate what I mean, if you imagine that an accordion could be 'powered' by an electric pump giving constant air pressure, and had no bellows. It would be like a harmonium or pipe organ turned on its side.

If we held down one note, there would be 'x' volume on that note - constant and unvarying. If we then hold down two notes, since the air pressure is still exactly the same coming from the pump, the air is now being divided between two notes, half to each. Would that mean the total volume would be the same, but the volume of each of the two notes would be halved?

Then add a three reed bass chord with the left hand - we now have five reeds using the same total air supply. Same total volume and 1/5th volume on each of the individual notes?

As if that wasn't bad enough, small reeds (high pitched) need far less air to make them sound than big bass reeds, and that will constantly change as we go up and down the keyboard. Factor in the one to four sets of reeds we happen to be using on the RHS and the same on the bass side, add the fact that we DON'T want the volume to be static, we want it to rise and fall to create this mystical 'lift' and the whole thing is a nightmare of complications - yet a child can do it!

I think my message to beginners would be 'If you can play a single, simple tune using both hands, you are doing something that less than one in 100,000 of the population can do - be PROUD!'

 

[rancoman]

Sorry Pipemajor - I clean forgot you were there - I shouldn't post till I've had more coffee! :roll:

Can you answer the bit on piping lift for us?

 

[george garside]

Rancoman - you have got me thinking about the cunning tricks that are needed for the dunt!

I may be wrong but I would hazard a guess that ,as a generalisation. by ear players are more likely to get the hand of playing with lift. There are of course many exeptions and I am not inferring in any way that readers don't put in the lift.

However the key to playing by ear is to listen keenly to what is coming out of the box and in so doing make minute adjustents 'on the hoof' to improve things. Unfortunaltely some dot readers seem to work on the basis that if they are playing exactly what is writ all will be well.

So I would suggest that both schools concentrate on honing listening skills to carefully and continuously monitor the sound AND rhythm that is being played so that fine adjustments can be made on the hoof.
Personally I also find that keeping time with ones foot is absolutely essential but some may disagree!

george

 

[rancoman]

And if you do it loudly enough it saves having to pay for a drummer...... :b

 

[george garside]

:tup:

 

[Pipemajor]

With regard to "lift" when playing the pipes, I deliberately didn't get involved as others may think I'm veering off course as this is an accordion forum, but seeing as you asked :roll:
It's not easy. As you rightly say rancoman, we can't alter the volume- it's just LOUD.
We have a whole series of grace notes and doublings to give the impression of note accentuation and timing of course has the greatest degree of influence on the overall sound.
Fortunately we don't do much playing for dancing these days as there's usually a disco at the type of events we would be at. Weddings for example when we may play the odd Gay Gordons .
Highland dancing is a different matter when the emphasis is on keeping time with the dancers and the music is of secondary importance the the audience.
Getting back to lift, the lengthening and cutting of notes is the way we can create lift.
If I can give an example using the Irish/Scottish tune " Paddys leather breeches"
This is a 6/8 jig. The first bar has 3 quavers , a crotchet and a quaver.
The Irish would play this as written, but a piper would play virtually a crotchet for the first note followed by 2 demisemi quavers (or as short as you can make them clearly) then virtually a dotted crotchet followed by the last fraction of a quaver.
Obviously it takes a lot of practice to get it right and it would vary depending on the tune and it is one of the signs of a good piper when he/she can get feeling into a tune.
Changeing the subject slightly, I've noticed that there are those on this forum who appear to denigrate and scoff at those of us who have taken the trouble to learn to read music and infer that
those of us who can, can't play a tune with feeling because we're too busy following the "dots".
How do you non readers learn new tune if you don't have anyone to copy from?
I have in excess of 1500 tunes including many books of original compositions from musicians- some who are no longer with us, and no one could remember that amount of tunes even if you could find recordings of them. I can look at a tune and know exactly how it goes without having to play it and will often spend hours looking through music books picking out tunes which catch my eye.
It's all a matter of your interest in your type of music and being able to read music gives an advantage which I wouldn't want to be without.
Rant over. Hope I'm not being oversensitive. Just my impression.

 

[george garside]

I said that as a generalisation some those playing by ear seem to find it easier to generate the 'lift' than do some readers. I was not inferring in anyway that good readers have a problem with lift . Indeed many first class readers actualy play dance music by ear/from memory and in that respect there is little or no difference between readers and earists.

both 'schools' have their merits and disadvantages depending on what is played where and with whom (eg a by earist may not cope in an orchestra whilst some readers could equally be out of depth in a ceilidh band.
george

 

[rancoman]

Thanks for that, Pipemajor - now I understand how the pipers do it - under very difficult circumstances.

I remember listening to a recording of three pipers consecutively playing exactly the same tune - I think it might have been a competition of some kind? Anyway, I listened to all three several times, and concluded that, TO ME, one of them was competent but boring and the other two were good to listen to, but one had a slight edge over the other. TO ME. I'm well aware that these things are SO personal and subjective, and I'm not a piping judge, so I was probably looking for the one that sounded most like how an accordion would have played it!

I would LOVE to be able to read music - the prospect of sitting with huge piles of music as you can do and browsing through it looking for something that took my eye, or recalling an old favorite, instead of being limited to what I can remember at the time would be lovely. Alas I'm too old to change now and I never seem to have the time to sit down and try anyway.

Last night I happened to be browsing YouTube in connection with a post on here, and I found recordings of Emile Vacher, Yvette Horner and others playing 'Reine de Musette' and some of the other 'standards' - all great, but some I preferred to the others, even though they were all fantastic professional players of their day. Personal preference, and I'm sure all of us would have had different favorites.

I'm away to practice scales..... :b

 

[rancoman]

Oooooh it's all gone quiet!

How can we help beginners and those with less experience to get better? If beginners and learners (HA! We're ALL still learning!) are too shy to post, how do we get them to post to tell us they are too shy to post?

If you guys don't tell the rest of us what you want, we can't help you achieve it. Private messages? Could that be an answer?

If you're stuck on something, or want tips, some of the more experienced players MUST be able to help you. There is no such thing as a silly question - ALL of us picked up an accordion for the first time one day, even though in some cases that day was a long time ago.

 

[george garside]

Another thought on acquiring the skills needed to provide 'lift' for dancers is to listen to dance bands or single box players on youtube , CD's or whatever

those that set your feet tapping without conscious effort on your part are the ones that are putting plenty of ' lift' - and maybe they are the ones to try and play along with.

george

 

[rancoman]

......and feel free to like some and not like, maybe even DISLIKE others - YOUR taste is what to enjoy and copy or learn from.

Remember, though, if there is something you DISlike, it can be helpful to work out WHY you dislike it, so you can avoid doing whatever it was in your own playing.

It would be a poorer world if we all sounded the same when we play. {}