re tuning advice

[Vlad the Polka]

One of my accordions, a 2 reed compact 120 giulietti, has gone slightly out of tune over the years. I have done some retuning and restoration but I'm scared to touch these reeds but I also don't really want to pay someone else to do it. Should I just go for it and try to retune it myself? I use a spot tuner and Peterson strobe app on my phone.

 

[Tom]

One of my accordions, a 2 reed compact 120 giulietti, has gone slightly out of tune over the years. I have done some retuning and restoration but I'm scared to touch these reeds but I also don't really want to pay someone else to do it. Should I just go for it and try to retune it myself? I use a spot tuner and Peterson strobe app on my phone.

Yes. Unless you know a pro that you trust and will do it for a decent price. Which, if true, will make you a rare Vlad indeed. Besides, then you will have the knowledge for your next accordion.

 

[Vlad the Polka]

Yes. Unless you know a pro that you trust and will do it for a decent price. Which, if true, will make you a rare Vlad indeed. Besides, then you will have the knowledge for your next accordion.

thank you Tom! I know pros that will do it but it's just like why I don't pay for haircuts and do it myself. It keeps growing back though just like how accordions keep going out of tune. I gave myself a really bad haircut the first time and since then they are ok. I will admit I basically ruined a couple of accordions figuring out how to tune them but I have gotten better at it. The giulietti is special to me so I will be extra super careful not to over scratch.

 

[tcabot]

Go for it, what can possibly go wrong.

 

[debra]

Start out by reading through www.accordionrevival.com to get to know the accordion inside out.
Then, for tuning you will need "sweet" files (sharp and with fine grain), a sharp scratcher, and a thin flat piece of metal (like a feeler guage).
When you are filing, support the reed with the flat metal, and when scratching, support the inner reed from underneath with the file so it doesn't bend and support the outer reed with the flat metal.
Create a table on which you can write down all the deviations you measure while playing each note, and then use that table to do a bit of filing or scratching as needed. Then play every note again and write down the deviations. When you are careful and go easy on the filing or scratching you should get where you want within about five rounds of measuring and tuning.

 

[debra]

thank you Tom! I know pros that will do it but it's just like why I don't pay for haircuts and do it myself. It keeps growing back though just like how accordions keep going out of tune. I gave myself a really bad haircut the first time and since then they are ok. I will admit I basically ruined a couple of accordions figuring out how to tune them but I have gotten better at it. The giulietti is special to me so I will be extra super careful not to over scratch.

Tuning an accordion is a destructive process, just like doing a haircut. The main difference is that in an accordion when you scratch or file off too much it doesn't grow back!

 

[tcabot]

If you ruin the reed you can always file off the old rivet, make a new tongue from some good quality spring steel and fit it better than the Italian factory.

 

[Vlad the Polka]

If you ruin the reed you can always file off the old rivet, make a new tongue from some good quality spring steel and fit it better than the Italian factory.

haha. I can detect some sarcasm here.

 

[Vlad the Polka]

Start out by reading through www.accordionrevival.com to get to know the accordion inside out.
Then, for tuning you will need "sweet" files (sharp and with fine grain), a sharp scratcher, and a thin flat piece of metal (like a feeler guage).
When you are filing, support the reed with the flat metal, and when scratching, support the inner reed from underneath with the file so it doesn't bend and support the outer reed with the flat metal.
Create a table on which you can write down all the deviations you measure while playing each note, and then use that table to do a bit of filing or scratching as needed. Then play every note again and write down the deviations. When you are careful and go easy on the filing or scratching you should get where you want within about five rounds of measuring and tuning.

thank you Paul. Yeah this is how ive pretty much been doing it. The outside reeds I find pretty easy but the inside ones its easy to mess up the voicing by bending them up while still in the reed block. Do you think the frequency response of a condenser mic going into the app on a laptop is more accurate than the phone mic?

 

[tcabot]

I can detect some sarcasm here.

Only partially, because I can and have done exactly that: replaced reeds when they were broken (not by me).

I think there's two things to think about here:
1) It's great that you want to learn to do this and it's a great skill to have.

2) If you're afraid to touch the reeds you shouldn't be touching them. If your main driver is not wanting to pay the professional for his time & expertise, but you can't do the job as well or better than him, then you should probably pay on this occasion and keep practicing on less valuable (to you) instruments.

I am surprised that the accordion has gone "slightly out of tune" over the years. I can hear boxes going "slightly out of tune" in a matter of months of everyday playing after they have been tuned. Years of neglect should amount to an accordion where a good third of the notes are wildly off.

 

[debra]

...
I am surprised that the accordion has gone "slightly out of tune" over the years. I can hear boxes going "slightly out of tune" in a matter of months of everyday playing after they have been tuned. Years of neglect should amount to an accordion where a good third of the notes are wildly off.

It's a matter of "perception". People come to me because their accordion has a few notes that are slightly out of tune, and that message essentially means that they have a few notes that are wildly off while all the others are a bit less out of tune. One of them even was an accordion teacher (with professional degree), playing an accordion for over 30 years without it ever having been tuned and she still though it sounded quite fine overall. (And in some sense she was right. The often used MH register gave a nice sounding mild tremolo on all the notes...)
To me "a few notes need tuning" indicates that all the notes need tuning but a few may still be somewhat close to ok.

 

[debra]

thank you Paul. Yeah this is how ive pretty much been doing it. The outside reeds I find pretty easy but the inside ones its easy to mess up the voicing by bending them up while still in the reed block. Do you think the frequency response of a condenser mic going into the app on a laptop is more accurate than the phone mic?

I use a phone 99% of the time (and occasionally a condenser mic going into a laptop with Dirk's accordion tuner on it).
With the phone you do need to consider two issues:
1) on higher notes the tuning app may pick up a higher harmonic instead of the note you play and you have to move around a bit to get it to pick up the right frequency. (It could for instance think you are tuning G7 when in fact you are playing C6. And the measurement is then off by 2 cents as a consequence of our well-tempered tuning.)
2) you need to set the sampling frequency to 48kHz (from the default 44.1kHz) if you want to measure notes up to and including C#8. My phone cannot pick up C#8 when set to 44.1kHz but does it fine with 48kHz. (There are no notes above C#8 as that is the highest reed in production.)

 

[Ventura]

considering the original post, i do wonder if before any tuning
work is done, in this instance, perhaps first change all the reed-leathers
for new ones and make certain the wax has not cracked or lifted enough
to cause some minor air seepage

those two things might bring the tuning back up close to original

 

[debra]

considering the original post, i do wonder if before any tuning
work is done, in this instance, perhaps first change all the reed-leathers
for new ones and make certain the wax has not cracked or lifted enough
to cause some minor air seepage

those two things might bring the tuning back up close to original

Very sound advice! Tuning is always the very last step of accordion maintenance and repair. The first thing to check is that there are no air leaks anywhere (most likely culprit is the bellows gasket tape). Then check that the reed blocks are perfectly flat on the underside (sand if needed), that they have no play (cannot move left or right, not even half a millimeter), that the wax is good (this is especially important on accordions where reed plates are held in place with nails so when the wax fails the reed plates do not fall off right away) and that the valves are still good (especially leather valves that may harden over time). When everything is good and working properly, with stable tuning, that's when tuning can begin.
People often think they can just have a few reeds tuned and it should be an inexpensive repair job, but considering what needs to be done before tuning can even begin a tuning job is always expensive.

 

[boxplayer4000]

Vlad The Polka:
Before you even consider filing or scratching reeds, or otherwise removing metal that can't be replaced, you need to further explore why the reed has gone out of tune.
By far the main causes are the reed valves becoming 'tired' along with dirt or debris getting onto the reed. There are others such as reed misalignment or wax problems.
Scratching or filing reeds while any of these conditions exist is a waste of time.

 

[Vlad the Polka]

Only partially, because I can and have done exactly that: replaced reeds when they were broken (not by me).

I think there's two things to think about here:
1) It's great that you want to learn to do this and it's a great skill to have.

2) If you're afraid to touch the reeds you shouldn't be touching them. If your main driver is not wanting to pay the professional for his time & expertise, but you can't do the job as well or better than him, then you should probably pay on this occasion and keep practicing on less valuable (to you) instruments.

I am surprised that the accordion has gone "slightly out of tune" over the years. I can hear boxes going "slightly out of tune" in a matter of months of everyday playing after they have been tuned. Years of neglect should amount to an accordion where a good third of the notes are wildly off.

some very good points thank you!

When I first got it I had it tuned up but it only needed a few notes tuned and it sounded fine to me then. Some of the notes are just a couple cents off while some are more like ten cents off. usually sharp. when I play it for people and ask them if it sounds good they don't seem to notice but I do(especially when playing legato).

I have known its out of tune but it's not so bad that it sounds horrible. but it doesn't sound great. I live off a very small income which is why most things I learn to do myself, something I learned from my grandfather who raised me and lived through the Great Depression.

 

[Vlad the Polka]

It's a matter of "perception". People come to me because their accordion has a few notes that are slightly out of tune, and that message essentially means that they have a few notes that are wildly off while all the others are a bit less out of tune. One of them even was an accordion teacher (with professional degree), playing an accordion for over 30 years without it ever having been tuned and she still though it sounded quite fine overall. (And in some sense she was right. The often used MH register gave a nice sounding mild tremolo on all the notes...)
To me "a few notes need tuning" indicates that all the notes need tuning but a few may still be somewhat close to ok.

Yes I have known its out of tune for some time but it didn't become as apparent until I got a full size giulietti 120 that was professionally maintained.

 

[Vlad the Polka]

considering the original post, i do wonder if before any tuning
work is done, in this instance, perhaps first change all the reed-leathers
for new ones and make certain the wax has not cracked or lifted enough
to cause some minor air seepage

those two things might bring the tuning back up close to original

Thank you for your advice! The leathers look fine to me and have not curled up at all. Though they have developed a nice old book smell. The wax looks impeccable and the compression is very tight. But perhaps I should replace a few leathers to see if that is the issue.

 

[tcabot]

when I play it for people and ask them if it sounds good

When I play mine for people they usually throw eggs & tomatoes at me. Sometimes bricks.

Strange...The accordion is tuned close to perfection

 

[Vlad the Polka]

Very sound advice! Tuning is always the very last step of accordion maintenance and repair. The first thing to check is that there are no air leaks anywhere (most likely culprit is the bellows gasket tape). Then check that the reed blocks are perfectly flat on the underside (sand if needed), that they have no play (cannot move left or right, not even half a millimeter), that the wax is good (this is especially important on accordions where reed plates are held in place with nails so when the wax fails the reed plates do not fall off right away) and that the valves are still good (especially leather valves that may harden over time). When everything is good and working properly, with stable tuning, that's when tuning can begin.
People often think they can just have a few reeds tuned and it should be an inexpensive repair job, but considering what needs to be done before tuning can even begin a tuning job is always expensive.

Thank you! yeah the compression is very tight with no leaks that I can tell. The full size 120 I just bought had a leak and I finally figured out it was a tiny little crack in the celluloid.