Recording an Accordion

[Technical]

Does anyone have tips on recording an accordion?

I'm a newbie at the accordion and home recording but I have a Shure SM57 on a stand plugged into a Scarlett 2i2. I tend to point the mic 45 degree downwards towards the centre of the instrument. I'm trying to get the instrument as close to the mic as I can (a couple of inches?) and I play at a decent volume. I use a gain of around 47db on the Scarlet and bump the db on Audacity by 10-15db.

I can get decent recordings if I position everything in a certain way (i.e. avoid my breathing, creeks and loud button clicks). I also record ukulele and that sounds loud, crisp and clear so I'm wondering if I can improve the sound of the accordion too.

Any tips welcome.

 

[JerryPH]

Yes… one or 2 hints for you.
First you have the basics but getting a stereo image out of an accordion is a big thing.

Mic placement is slightly different for each box but, a little experimentation will get you there.
Location, location, location… recording in a reverberant or noisy room can kill a lot of the quality.
Want to pull the most out of the files? A little post processing can do wonders.

In the end, this stuff is really not rocket science.

A couple of examples:





Post some samples, we’ll be better able to help.

 

[Tom]

This guy on YouTube has some pretty good ideas.

Ha ha, we posted at the exact same time!!!!

 

[JerryPH]

This guy on YouTube has some pretty good ideas.

Ha ha, we posted at the exact same time!!!!

We did! Wow, that’s like 7 years old… time for a newer version…lol

A basic “how-to” of how I post process some files.

 

[Technical]

I've actually seen that video before and it was helpful because there arn't many out there. The sound quality is good in those recordings too.

Seems like you use dynamic mics? I like the dynamic one I have as it doesn't pick up the background noise (I'm in an untreated room) but it does seem to mean you need to be close. I want to get a second mic if things go well with the one to start with (and once I get the hang of it) because as you say, it's bound to help give you a more full sound which you can control more.

Some recordings here, hopefully enough to tell: https://file.io/YDls1Vw7Bgbt. Forgive the actual playing, I've just been playing around experimenting with the recording process.

I'm going to watch that post processing video as I don't know anything about it yet.

 

[JerryPH]

The files you setup were deleted?
Oh, and then then you can get in to multitracking, that’s a world unto itself… lol
An old recording revived with digital help:

 

[ColoRodney]

I tend to back the mic away from the instrument three or four feet. You don’t’ t want to be noticeably closer to some reeds than others. Distance is more important if you’re using both sides, treble and bass. I have a room that I’ve deadened somewhat, which helps. I’ve gotten good results from condenser and ribbon mics (Rode NT4 for stereo, Rode NTR for mono ribbon).

 

[JerryPH]

I tend to back the mic away from the instrument three or four feet. You don’t’ t want to be noticeably closer to some reeds than others. Distance is more important if you’re using both sides, treble and bass. I have a room that I’ve deadened somewhat, which helps. I’ve gotten good results from condenser and ribbon mics (Rode NT4 for stereo, Rode NTR for mono ribbon).

Now a lot depends on the kinds of mics and the environment. Pulling back a dynamic mic 3-4 feet and you are going to need to boost the gain so much that you start to add more preamp noise and could possibly be maxing out your preamp gain levels (bad thing!). With condenser mics you are now also loosing separation of the left/right hands and introducing room ambience noise. This may be desirable or not depending on your style and kind of condenser mic.

On a HyperCardioid condenser, I can see where placing the mic 6 inches from the keyboard and not having it centered as giving you unequal volume depending on where you are playing, but with a standard cardioid pattern about 12-18 inches, you will capture the entire keyboard quite evenly as long as it's centered. This also is far enough away that accordion clatter is minimized.

The left hand one may think that because of bellows movement, you could get uneven volume (and you will get a small amount), but that is then handled by some gentle compression.

I want to try to maintain as much control and separation over the individual parts as possible, so for me, closer (within reason... the 12-18" distance is my maximum preferred length for condenser mics), is better for that goal.

External sounds... using sensitive external mics we are going to hear all kinds of things... our breathing, the mechanics of our accordion, registration changes... and if you are not in a quiet or sound controlled room, the cars passing outside, the neighbor's dog barking or lawn mower. Some things I actually like... the breath as it comes with the music, the sound of the keys. To some extent, that makes the song for me, but I don't want it to dominate the song.

If you want perfect recordings with no external sound and zero mechanical noises, go digital accordion.

The next best thing (for CONTROL, not necessarily ultimate for sound quality... for some), is a good set of internal mics, they are close enough to the sound that external noises are near eliminated. Good internal mics will have minimal mechanical noise even if they are under 2 inches away from the openings as a bonus, but they are expensive and not easily transferrable if you have more than 1 accordion.. In all sincerity, this is my favorite system.

Dynamic mics generally have a warmer tone but their peak functional distance is more in inches than feet and they are also much less sensitive (try speaking normally and moving a dynamic mic from 2" to 18" and hear the difference in volume) Dynamic mics are great for singing, a little less optimal for recording an accordion.

In the end, we use what we have and do the best we can with it.

 

[Technical]

Sorry let me try that again: https://filebin.net/11txhpvq319yhb04

Does anyone use dynamic mics for an accordion? My worry with condensors is that my room is small and untreated plus I have a computer huming away in one corner. I wish I could try one to see if it is worthwhile without an sizable investment. I also wonder if having 2 x SM57s would help alot too or whether a condensor and dynamic combo would be better?

I don't think it's bad at the moment, I'm not aiming for a professional level but anything I can do within reason to improve it would be nice e.g. maybe post processing or a second mic.

 

[debra]

Sorry let me try that again: https://filebin.net/11txhpvq319yhb04

Does anyone use dynamic mics for an accordion? My worry with condensors is that my room is small and untreated plus I have a computer huming away in one corner. I wish I could try one to see if it is worthwhile without an sizable investment. I also wonder if having 2 x SM57s would help alot too or whether a condensor and dynamic combo would be better?

I don't think it's bad at the moment, I'm not aiming for a professional level but anything I can do within reason to improve it would be nice e.g. maybe post processing or a second mic.

Whether the mics are dynamic or condensor doesn't really matter in terms of how they will pick up other sources of noise or not. What matters is how the mics are encased in the mic housing. If the mics are made to be very directional then noise sources behind it should not be picked up much. But when they are omnidirectional they will pick up everything.
The reality is that to make good recordings of an accordion (not using internal mics) by far the best way to make sure no unwanted external noises are picked up is to eliminate these noises. When I make recordings I turn off the computer and the air conditioner and check that no neighbors are mowing the lawn and there are no helicopters or jet fighters in the air, and that it is not pouring outside, and especially no hailstorm. There are days where half of the time I spend on making a recording is spent waiting for sources of noise to stop.

 

[Technical]

Everywhere I look it suggests condesors are more sensitive and hence pick up more sound, hence you can be further away but as you say, depends on the recording pattern of the head (I've seen some with interchangeable ones).

Well I don't think I would have issues with the sound of rain or fighter jets so I'm probably lucky in that sense. My risk is more likely reflection in the room or baby crying.

I can't get away from the computer as it's what I use to record. Maybe getting a quiet portable one would be useful.

Have you ever tried with a dynamic mic like an SM57? It is mainly front recording, hence I got some great results with my ukulele without worrying about external sound, sounds like a plugged in internal mic to me.

 

[dak]

On a HyperCardioid condenser, I can see where placing the mic 6 inches from the keyboard and not having it centered as giving you unequal volume depending on where you are playing, but with a standard cardioid pattern about 12-18 inches, you will capture the entire keyboard quite evenly as long as it's centered.

When I employ a hypercardioid to pick up the treble, the main point for me is not having it centered. You point it at one end of the treble side while having its body closer to the other side. So you balance the sides by using proximity on one end and the directional characteristic on the other.

Why would you do that? Because the directional characteristic is frequency-dependent. This allows you to balance the tone between low and high range. You cannot fix this after recording because the recording cannot distinguish the overtones from the low notes from the fundamentals of the higher notes.

 

[debra]

...
I can't get away from the computer as it's what I use to record. Maybe getting a quiet portable one would be useful.

A digital portable recording device may do better than the computer, even disregarding the noise of the computer itself.
I started out with a Zoom H2 and now use a Tascam DR40X.

Have you ever tried with a dynamic mic like an SM57? It is mainly front recording, hence I got some great results with my ukulele without worrying about external sound, sounds like a plugged in internal mic to me.

In the past I have used some dynamic Sennheiser mics like the MD421 (which at that time was used in many studios). I still use some cheaper Sennheiser dynamic mics, for instance for announcements during a concert. For a long time dynamic mics were considered superior to condenser mics, but nowadays mics like the AKG C214 (or C314 or C414) are realy good. They are large diaphragm mics, great sound, but not so great in a noisy room.

 

[Technical]

Any thoughts on the recordings?

 

[Tom]

I’m not much of an expert on this but they sound pretty clean, I don’t hear extraneous noise. Maybe more bass growl on the first that is not related to the recording?

 

[JerryPH]

Sorry let me try that again: https://filebin.net/11txhpvq319yhb04

Does anyone use dynamic mics for an accordion? My worry with condensors is that my room is small and untreated plus I have a computer huming away in one corner. I wish I could try one to see if it is worthwhile without an sizable investment. I also wonder if having 2 x SM57s would help alot too or whether a condensor and dynamic combo would be better?

I don't think it's bad at the moment, I'm not aiming for a professional level but anything I can do within reason to improve it would be nice e.g. maybe post processing or a second mic.

Well, I am sure that people will add their input, but the facts are that unless you are a pro studio and have a huge budget, there is no reason that one cannot mix and match mics... of any kind. We use what we have depending on our budget and what is available to us in our closet or drawer.

Are YOU happy with your recordings? What are things that YOU feel could be better?

Have you ever tried with a dynamic mic like an SM57? It is mainly front recording, hence I got some great results with my ukulele without worrying about external sound, sounds like a plugged in internal mic to me.

To date I have 3 levels of dual condenser mics (uber cheap, mid-range pencil condenser and large diaphram expensive ones)... and I have a single SM58 clone and an original SM57, I have made test recordings with each. I found dynamic more demanding in terms of gain, so one may be pushing the audio interface in to the levels that are more noisy than a condenser mic. Are condensers more sensitive? Yes of course, but one then compensates by lowering the gain on the interface which automatically lowers the noise floor and improves the quality of the recording.

A digital portable recording device may do better than the computer, even disregarding the noise of the computer itself.
I started out with a Zoom H2 and now use a Tascam DR40X.

Uhm... I respectfully disagree. Ultimately, recordings are never going to be any better than the preamps used to capture the sound. Once captured, they are passed through an A/D (analog to digital) converter. Once the item has passed through the A/D converter, it's all 0's and 1's and whether its moved from there to a computer or an SD card... 100% zero difference, it's all digital.

What will make a difference are quality preamps.

The thing with items like a low end capture devices is that they typically have low gain values and noisy preamps. One can actually get a better quality sound from a GOOD audio interface going in to a computer.

Stick an SM57 on your H2 and you are going to be driving the gain levels up so far (if not to the maximum, very close), and with that you will EASILY be able to hear the hiss. The dynamic range of an H2 is known to be very poor and you should be able to tell the difference between the H2 and your DR40X (be glad you are using condenser mics and not dynamic mics).

Now, depending on which version (I, II, III or the most desired... the generation IV), it blows even your DR40X out of the water in terms of dynamic range and clarity. The 2i2 versions prior to V4 were not all that great, but thats why they went to a 4th generation, to keep up with the competition.

Dynamic range and gain range are 2 of the 3 most important specs of any audio recording device, and Tascam doesn't even list them for the DR40x, but the Focusrite 2i2 generation IV (4), has 2 of the lowest/quietest preamps they ever had on any interface with a 69db gain range and a dynamic range of 120db... VERY important if you are wanting to use dynamic mics and important as well when using condenser mics.

The Zoom H2 has a gain range of 45db for example. I could not find any specs discussing dynamic range, but I expect sub 100db numbers.

The biggest advantages to either the Zoom H2 or the Tascam DR-40x was not it's sound quality, but price, portability and ease of use.

For comparison, my old (but no no longer made Zoom F4 field recorder) has a dynamic range of 128db and a gain range of 75db.

Clearly, even over the last 5 years the audio recording industry has made leaps and bounds of improvements to the point where further improvements are not easy to even measure, much less hear... lol

Any thoughts on the recordings?

If you are asking about the sound quality of the overall recording and what I feel about it?
- the sound is a bit bland, lifeless
- mics appear to be a little further away as I can hear the room ambience slightly or the room is too "live".
- your performance is good, there is some feeling in the piece with the ukulele and accordion.

There are a few things that could be done, but I would be shooting away in the dark without a little more info.
- what's the size and shape of the room?
- where in the room are you recording?
- are you using anything to help control the room at all?
- what are you using to post process your music?

 

[dak]

What will make a difference are quality preamps.

And quality converters and the sampling rates and bit depth. And then there's the processing too...

Stick an SM57 on your H2 and you are going to be driving the gain levels up so far (if not to the maximum, very close), and with that you will EASILY be able to hear the hiss.

Uh, you want to diss the H2 but apparently don't know what you are dealing with. It has only high-level stereo 3.5mm inputs with optional plugin power. Put a dynamic mic on that and you'll be lucky if you hear anything but hiss. It deals with mono or stereo electret condenser capsules, also known as video mics.

The Zoom H2 has a gain range of 45db for example. I could not find any specs discussing dynamic range, but I expect sub 100db numbers.

Again, you want to diss the H2 but lack the imagination. Its input level setting is implemented in the digital domain, so there is no point in setting it to anything but 100%. It does have a 3-level switch working in the analog domain with settings H-M-L. Since the M level already has the low bits populated by noise from the first input stage, the H level is pointless: you just get more bits of noise in return for clipping. So there are only two levels worth setting, M and L. I doubt they differ by as much as 20dB.

The H2 is very easy to set up regarding the gain: all you need to decide is L or M. It offers sample rates of 88.2kHz and 96kHz in addition to 48kHz and 44.1kHz, but the analog circuitry shuts off beyond 15kHz. So it is pointless to use anything but 44.1kHz and 48kHz which you pick depending on your desired end result (CD or computer, respectively). In a similar vein, it can record 24bit samples which give you 8 bits of additional noise over 16 bit samples. Another no-brainer.

All that being said, the H2 is a pretty low-profile recorder that does a reasonable job, better than most minidisc recorders. I've used it for probably about a decade, followed by a year or two of a H2n (which is somewhat better) and now a H6 (which is a lot better and has proper balanced XLR inputs and good preamps). What the H2n does well is placing its batteries: it has a low and well-positioned center of gravity and will stand on a hard floor without requiring additional feet.

 

[debra]

...
What will make a difference are quality preamps.

The thing with items like a low end capture devices is that they typically have low gain values and noisy preamps. One can actually get a better quality sound from a GOOD audio interface going in to a computer.

Stick an SM57 on your H2 and you are going to be driving the gain levels up so far (if not to the maximum, very close), and with that you will EASILY be able to hear the hiss. The dynamic range of an H2 is known to be very poor and you should be able to tell the difference between the H2 and your DR40X (be glad you are using condenser mics and not dynamic mics).
...

With dynamic mics the preamps make all the difference. WIth condensor mics the preamps that matter most are the ones inside the microphone, to give them a boosted signal. For my humble applications I wasn't going to spend twice the money for C414 mics over the C214.
I must say that when I moved from recording with the Zoom H2 to first a Tascam DR100 and (after it broke) DR40X I could hear the difference. But I have not found the audio quality of the two CDs we recorded with my "ARTE ensemble" (quintet) to be limited by recording with the H2. (The playing and the accordions being out of tune were two more important limitations.) Dynamic range is certainly not the limiting factor with accordion recording because accordions do not have a very large dynamic range themselves. Try to play very loud and the frequency of low notes drops too much. Try to play very soft and reeds stop playing, and their frequency may go up or down depending on the resistance offered by the valves...

 

[Technical]

I got a 2i2 v4 because my research highlighted that gain could be a problem with something like a SM57 and I got an SM57 as I wanted something not too expensive but would be versitile i.e. could record a range of instruments.

When you say lifeless, that might be the reason I'm asking in the first place, just something felt like it might be missing. My ukulele only recordings feel the opposite to me but I'm guessing it's because the accordion may need different treatment due to being a very different instrument. Any ideas on how to change that?

So the room is a small rectangle (9x10' maybe?) and has stuff in it but isn't treated and doesn't have lots of soft or dense items. I think what I can do with the room will be relatively limited. I sit at a desk facing one wall.

I do push the gain on the 2i2 to try and raise the volume until I think I'm just avoiding hiss, 47db is what I've been using recently. To record I just use Audacity and bump the gain on the recording by another 10/15db but nothing else. I feel like I need to figure out what other post processing may improve things.

 

[Rosie C]

An interesting discussion! I started with a DR40X and found it easy to use with apparently good sound quality (my hearing's not great). I then tried using Sennheiser dynamic mics through a Behringer mixing desk with USB into my Apple Mac - much harder to set up and I often got worse results. But the DR40X is quite limited in channels - one built-in stereo mic with two lines in which have to share the same settings - so for some of our band configurations only really two track. I have a Zoom H8 on order - 6 channel with optional 4 channel expander, so I'll see how that goes.

Back to the original question, I've only ever recorded my accordion with the DIY internal mics it came fitted with - and that sounds good enough. I have mic'd up an accordion with external mics to play through a PA, but while the treble side worked well with a Sennheiser E835, but I found getting a good sound from the bass side too difficult with it moving.