Per Glenns request in THIS POST, he said:
Id like to start a thread on tips how to record your accordion. Starting with the topic of how to achieve some left/right separation and maybe hope to start some talk about hardware and sharing of knowledge and opinions from others on this forum.
About two years ago, I bought a pair of very cheap condensor mics (Neewer NW-800, which were just under $20 each). I had some fun with them, but knew that I wanted to soon get something a little better. Thats when I started researching what it would take in terms of hardware and made a blog post (LINK HERE), about how the search for my hardware of choice went. Later on, I made a short post of my findings about mic placement (LINK HERE).
I found that there were many different ways one could capture sound at a pretty good quality with one mic, but that two mics offered the choice of a stereo image. Right after that I realized that I could get to the point where too much of a good thing could negatively impact a recording, meaning that I had enough stereo separation that it stopped sounding natural, however, with this level, I suddenly had control to decide how narrow or wide a soundstage I wanted on any given recording.
So herein starts the meat of my contribution to this thread...
Rule #1. If you dont have control over how the sound bounces around in your environment, you cannot control the content of your recording. This means that if you are playing in a room with 4 bare, hard walls and lots of echo, all your recordings will have uncontrollable echo. Though some like this, most of us do not.
Step #1 should be to create a series of hints about the recording location. Here are my tips:
1. Try not to record in a square room. I know, we record where we can, but if we have a choice, rectangular is better than square. L or T [font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]shap[/font][font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]ed[/font] rooms are better than rectangular.
2. Gain control of your environment. If you are in a room with lots of echo, we need to reduce it. A room that is live is commonly a room with lots of echo or reverb. A dead room is a room that basically either redirects sound or absorbs it so that there is no echo coming back and being captured by the mics. It is almost impossible to have a 100% dead room, and in most cases, not only is it hard, it is not really desirable, however, the less that is entering the mic that you do not want, the better. This can be controlled by using blankets on the walls, by creating small sound absorbing walls that roll around on castors or that can be put together and create a small sound room. I even often saw people prop the mattress on a wall or hang thick moving blankets to absorb a lot of sound and make significant improvements.
3. Here is a little caveat... foam is great a redirecting sound, but it sucks as a sound absorbing material. Dont waste your money on those fancy and overpriced foam acoustic panels, there are better and cheaper alternatives already mentioned here!
Mic Placement Techniques
Rule #2. There is no one perfect way to place mics that will work for every song, every accordion under every environment. Basically what I am saying here is that there are many fantastic ways, and a few really bad ways to capture sound in a manner that lets us create files that we can work on and result in awesome songs. That said, the ways that I have worked with and the results that I have had come from the following ideas:
1. THE A-B or “FAR APART” TECHNIQUE (also known as SPACED PAIR)
This is where the mics are at least 3 feet apart, about 30 inches off the floor and aim right straight ahead. Forming a bit of an equilateral triangle between the 2 mics and the center of the accordion is the basis of this setup. Advantages are a great left/right separation and a strong sense of intimacy to the sound, but there is a slight loss of quality of the famous Cassotto sound *if * your accordion has it. It is extremely subtle, though, and it takes a great set of headphones and ears to hear this. I used the HyperCardioid setting of my mics to give me more separation between the left and right sides. Perhaps using a cardioid pattern would reduce the stereo separation a small amount, but add a touch more balance to the final recording.
Though I have not fully yet tested all possibilities, there are some very potentially interesting variations of the A-B Technique (like getting them further apart, say, 4 to 6 feet). Other combinations would be thinking outside the box... like how about not placing them side by side, how about placing the mic for the bass further to the back of the accordion and the accordion right hand is placed in front and to the side of the accordion… and so on). All stuff to play with yourself and see if it works for you!
FACTORY SOUND BAR SETUP TECHNIQUE
When I purchased the sE4400a Matched Pair of microphones, I received a small sound bar that holds both mics on a single stand. It places the mics about 15 inches apart. Placing them about 30 inches off the ground, this is again a kind of triangle but the mics are much closer together, though about the same 3 feet away from the accordion. Advantages are a fair to moderate left/right separation, but the famous Cassotto sound is there in full force and there is an even stronger sense of intimacy to the sound, definitely more than the A-B technique. As mentioned previously, the Cassotto effect is extremely subtle and it takes a great set of headphones and ears to hear this, but it is there in full force and pleasant. Using the HyperCardioid setting of my mics gave me even more separation between the left and right sides and perhaps changing that to a cardioid pattern would bring the image closer together but with a pleasant smoothing effect.
MID-SIDE TECHNIQUE
This one is the most fascinating, because if you look at it, it seems like it cannot have any kind of stereo image, but quite the reverse is true… if done right, it presents a surprisingly wide sounding image with a very different feeling final result. The disadvantage is that you must use 2 different mics, where the other systems really do benefit from a matched pair. The setup requires that one mic be a Cardioid mic and one mic that can do a Figure-8 pattern (both of which my SE4400a’s can do). Also, the setup is a bit more complex in that the cardioid mic is placed facing the center of the accordion and the 2nd mic (switched to Figure-8 patter) is turned 90 degrees.
Another draw back is that there is some added post processing needed to be completed before you can hear this effect. The magic happens only when you do some post processing with the 2 files captured (one from each mic). In your DAW, you have 2 files, the Cardioid file and the Figure-8 file. Place the Cardioid file in TRACK 1, place the Figure-8 file in TRACK 2… here is where things get interesting… place a 2nd copy of the Figure-8 file on to TRACK 3. Leave the PAN setting of track 1 in the center, place the PAN setting of track 2 100% left and place the PAN setting of track 3 100% right. Here is where the magic happens… you *must* invert the phase of track 3!
Now, place the slider of track 1 to zero db and with tracks #2 and #3 started fully lowered to zero, play your music, and slowly slide tracks #2 and #3 up at the same time… and be prepared to hear a really cool effect!
So… between these three techniques so far, you may be curious to know which I prefer. It’s really hard, as I like *all* the results, however, after doing some quick “back and forth” listening, there are some very interesting traits with each system.
I think that the “A-B” technique can give you the biggest separation between left and right channels with a nice amount of “sound intimacy”, the Mid-Side technique gives the most unique stereo image with a high feel of room ambience and the Sound Bar gives a great sound with less stereo separation, but a bit more of the Cassotto effect and the greatest feeling of “sound intimacy” of the group so far.
My favorites in terms of highest to lower preferences are #1 the Sound Bar, #2 the A-B setup and #3 being the Mid-Side technique, however, I really like them all and it’s a very tight race. I can see some songs working better with specific mic setups, it is all lovely!
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]This is where I am so far in my studies. Do not think that we are just limited to 3 setups... indeed not! There are many other micing techniques like:[/font]
- Blumlein Pair
- X/Y Stereo Recording
- ORTF Stereo Recording
- Deca-Tree variant
- ... and many more!
Lets see where the conversation goes from here.
Glenn pid=65495 dateline=1559317218 said:
Id like to start a thread on tips how to record your accordion. Starting with the topic of how to achieve some left/right separation and maybe hope to start some talk about hardware and sharing of knowledge and opinions from others on this forum.
About two years ago, I bought a pair of very cheap condensor mics (Neewer NW-800, which were just under $20 each). I had some fun with them, but knew that I wanted to soon get something a little better. Thats when I started researching what it would take in terms of hardware and made a blog post (LINK HERE), about how the search for my hardware of choice went. Later on, I made a short post of my findings about mic placement (LINK HERE).
I found that there were many different ways one could capture sound at a pretty good quality with one mic, but that two mics offered the choice of a stereo image. Right after that I realized that I could get to the point where too much of a good thing could negatively impact a recording, meaning that I had enough stereo separation that it stopped sounding natural, however, with this level, I suddenly had control to decide how narrow or wide a soundstage I wanted on any given recording.
So herein starts the meat of my contribution to this thread...
Rule #1. If you dont have control over how the sound bounces around in your environment, you cannot control the content of your recording. This means that if you are playing in a room with 4 bare, hard walls and lots of echo, all your recordings will have uncontrollable echo. Though some like this, most of us do not.
Step #1 should be to create a series of hints about the recording location. Here are my tips:
1. Try not to record in a square room. I know, we record where we can, but if we have a choice, rectangular is better than square. L or T [font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]shap[/font][font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]ed[/font] rooms are better than rectangular.
2. Gain control of your environment. If you are in a room with lots of echo, we need to reduce it. A room that is live is commonly a room with lots of echo or reverb. A dead room is a room that basically either redirects sound or absorbs it so that there is no echo coming back and being captured by the mics. It is almost impossible to have a 100% dead room, and in most cases, not only is it hard, it is not really desirable, however, the less that is entering the mic that you do not want, the better. This can be controlled by using blankets on the walls, by creating small sound absorbing walls that roll around on castors or that can be put together and create a small sound room. I even often saw people prop the mattress on a wall or hang thick moving blankets to absorb a lot of sound and make significant improvements.
3. Here is a little caveat... foam is great a redirecting sound, but it sucks as a sound absorbing material. Dont waste your money on those fancy and overpriced foam acoustic panels, there are better and cheaper alternatives already mentioned here!
Mic Placement Techniques
Rule #2. There is no one perfect way to place mics that will work for every song, every accordion under every environment. Basically what I am saying here is that there are many fantastic ways, and a few really bad ways to capture sound in a manner that lets us create files that we can work on and result in awesome songs. That said, the ways that I have worked with and the results that I have had come from the following ideas:
1. THE A-B or “FAR APART” TECHNIQUE (also known as SPACED PAIR)
This is where the mics are at least 3 feet apart, about 30 inches off the floor and aim right straight ahead. Forming a bit of an equilateral triangle between the 2 mics and the center of the accordion is the basis of this setup. Advantages are a great left/right separation and a strong sense of intimacy to the sound, but there is a slight loss of quality of the famous Cassotto sound *if * your accordion has it. It is extremely subtle, though, and it takes a great set of headphones and ears to hear this. I used the HyperCardioid setting of my mics to give me more separation between the left and right sides. Perhaps using a cardioid pattern would reduce the stereo separation a small amount, but add a touch more balance to the final recording.
Though I have not fully yet tested all possibilities, there are some very potentially interesting variations of the A-B Technique (like getting them further apart, say, 4 to 6 feet). Other combinations would be thinking outside the box... like how about not placing them side by side, how about placing the mic for the bass further to the back of the accordion and the accordion right hand is placed in front and to the side of the accordion… and so on). All stuff to play with yourself and see if it works for you!
FACTORY SOUND BAR SETUP TECHNIQUE
When I purchased the sE4400a Matched Pair of microphones, I received a small sound bar that holds both mics on a single stand. It places the mics about 15 inches apart. Placing them about 30 inches off the ground, this is again a kind of triangle but the mics are much closer together, though about the same 3 feet away from the accordion. Advantages are a fair to moderate left/right separation, but the famous Cassotto sound is there in full force and there is an even stronger sense of intimacy to the sound, definitely more than the A-B technique. As mentioned previously, the Cassotto effect is extremely subtle and it takes a great set of headphones and ears to hear this, but it is there in full force and pleasant. Using the HyperCardioid setting of my mics gave me even more separation between the left and right sides and perhaps changing that to a cardioid pattern would bring the image closer together but with a pleasant smoothing effect.
MID-SIDE TECHNIQUE
This one is the most fascinating, because if you look at it, it seems like it cannot have any kind of stereo image, but quite the reverse is true… if done right, it presents a surprisingly wide sounding image with a very different feeling final result. The disadvantage is that you must use 2 different mics, where the other systems really do benefit from a matched pair. The setup requires that one mic be a Cardioid mic and one mic that can do a Figure-8 pattern (both of which my SE4400a’s can do). Also, the setup is a bit more complex in that the cardioid mic is placed facing the center of the accordion and the 2nd mic (switched to Figure-8 patter) is turned 90 degrees.
Another draw back is that there is some added post processing needed to be completed before you can hear this effect. The magic happens only when you do some post processing with the 2 files captured (one from each mic). In your DAW, you have 2 files, the Cardioid file and the Figure-8 file. Place the Cardioid file in TRACK 1, place the Figure-8 file in TRACK 2… here is where things get interesting… place a 2nd copy of the Figure-8 file on to TRACK 3. Leave the PAN setting of track 1 in the center, place the PAN setting of track 2 100% left and place the PAN setting of track 3 100% right. Here is where the magic happens… you *must* invert the phase of track 3!
Now, place the slider of track 1 to zero db and with tracks #2 and #3 started fully lowered to zero, play your music, and slowly slide tracks #2 and #3 up at the same time… and be prepared to hear a really cool effect!
So… between these three techniques so far, you may be curious to know which I prefer. It’s really hard, as I like *all* the results, however, after doing some quick “back and forth” listening, there are some very interesting traits with each system.
I think that the “A-B” technique can give you the biggest separation between left and right channels with a nice amount of “sound intimacy”, the Mid-Side technique gives the most unique stereo image with a high feel of room ambience and the Sound Bar gives a great sound with less stereo separation, but a bit more of the Cassotto effect and the greatest feeling of “sound intimacy” of the group so far.
My favorites in terms of highest to lower preferences are #1 the Sound Bar, #2 the A-B setup and #3 being the Mid-Side technique, however, I really like them all and it’s a very tight race. I can see some songs working better with specific mic setups, it is all lovely!
[font=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Sans-Serif]This is where I am so far in my studies. Do not think that we are just limited to 3 setups... indeed not! There are many other micing techniques like:[/font]
- Blumlein Pair
- X/Y Stereo Recording
- ORTF Stereo Recording
- Deca-Tree variant
- ... and many more!
Lets see where the conversation goes from here.
. I found that if I control the bellows with more "feeling" and generally play a little quieter the final outcome is better, the sound is less "punching", which is often a problem with all accordions.
