Right hand/Slight of hand CBA

[maugein96]

I was following the recent posts about Anzaghi's combined PA/CBA method and decided to have a look for Paul Chalier's CBA method, which is quite controversial in its outlook.

I was going to post his CBA fingering for C major C system, but don't want to confuse people any further, as Mr Chalier actually manages to do that very successfully in his method book.

He begins by ranting on about how many times he has had to correct bad fingering on pupils who have learned bad habits from the most popular method books of the day (his method was published in 1957, and I think he's talking about Ferrero and Anzaghi). He then explains that the right hand fingering in both methods puts unnecessary strain on the tendons as they make your hand move towards the "Belgian" or B system. He doesn't like anything Belgian at all as he then slates the way Belgian basses are arranged "upside down". He illustrates by making reference to a piano keyboard and illustrates that the chords and single notes both move from low to high in the same direction. (With Belgian basses the high notes are lower down and the lower notes are arranged towards the top of the bass rows).

He gets you playing all major scales with three fingers only, although the pinky comes into play in the minor scales and with arpeggios. When you've finally got the hang of all that he then springs the following little surprise on you. He acknowledges that some "modern" and classical players will want to use all four rows and the thumb on the outside row. So we then are shown how to bring on the thumb and use the 4th row, much in the same way as Galliano teaches us these days.

What is the point of this post?

It seems that CBA players are often persuaded towards one system or another, quite often as the result of the commitment to purchase a relatively expensive method book, or series of method books. Months later when progress may not be very rapid, doubts start to form in the mind of the student as to what is the best method.

Paul Chalier decided in 1957 that there will always be a divide between players who wish to use their thumbs over players who prefer not to. Consequently he devised a "novel" method whereby the student could decide which to play. He does advocate though, that the basics be mastered on 3 rows before he gives the "thumbs up" to experiment with the 4th row.

Therefore, all of the method books out there are capable of doing a job. Don't be mistrustful of the method you have chosen, as all of the methods are proven. Also, stick to one method, at least in the early years.

Please note there are no methods which call for use of any more than 5 fingers on the right hand. Therefore, if you have 6 or more fingers, you'll have to work out your own method!

 

[Soulsaver]

Always comprehensive with detail and always entertaining... Maugein, you have my hertrfelt approbation.

Edited for typos..

 

[Russ]

Hi maugein, I would be very interested in that right hand CBA fingering if you would post it

 

[losthobos]

I originally muddled along without a tutor then came across the Ferraro methodbook and stuck with that. Whilst at Eastbourne festival Harry Hussey asked me to play him something so i let him listen to my painful rendition of Polkadots and Moonbeams, played with thumb on side and using first three rows, Harry plays PA and looked at me real perplexed and said "why aren't you using your thumb and confining yourself to the rows nearest thumb rest. Since that moment I've now been playing with the thumb if needed, I'll make the choice of rows dependant upon wherever the chord shape feels comfiest and use the thumb to embellish/alter the voicing.....it took a non notable chromatic player to get me to jump out of my tutor book and explore the real potential of the instrument...thanks Harry

 

[maugein96]

Russ,

Here is Chalier's fingering for the C major scale, using only the outside 3 rows:- First row is ascending and second is descending.


DO RE ME FA SOL LA SI DO RE MI FA SOL LA SI DO

1 2 3 1 2 3 2 3 2 3 1 2 3 2 3


DO SI LA SOL FA MI RE DO SI LA SOL FA MI RE DO

3 2 3 2 1 3 2 3 2 3 2 1 3 2 1



You'll notice the unusual 3,2,3 for the first 3 notes of the second octave in the ascending scale. Apart from that, his fingering is more or less standard for the French methods of the time, although you need to remember to hit the C with finger 3 instead of 1 when playing both ascending and descending scales comprising more than one octave.

Sorry if my music speak and tablature is dodgy, but hopefully it will give you an idea.

Chalier's book is a treasure and I once had an accompanying cassette sleeve with his autograph on it. The book was given to me a friend years ago and I wouldn't part with it. It very occasionally comes up for sale on the French market site "Price Minister", and can sometimes also be found on google.fr under "Editions Cecilia".

Sorry, tried to edit this to have fingering lined up directly under notes. Failed miserably both times.

 

[Anyanka]

I can't see the point of using only three rows when you have five! On my little Morris accordion, I have to be really careful with the fingering as it is only a 3-row, but on the Pidge I insist on using all the rows and all my fingers (but not the toes), in any way that I please. That's the upside of not reading the manuals....

 

[maugein96]

Anyanka,

In the dark ages of the 50s and 60s French CBA students were often taught to play on 3 row C system, or on 4 row if they were lucky enough to be able to afford them. The issue of playing across 5 rows was not an option until the major French makers began to make 5 rows in any numbers. Even then a 5 row instrument was often nothing more than for show, as very few players would have known what to do with the 5th row. The Auvergnats with their folk style were quick to realise that 5 rows meant one fingering does all, and they began to use 5 rows whilst the rest of France still didn't seem to be able to come to terms with all those extra buttons.

Even guys like Jo Privat, who brought gypsy swing and jazz to the musette, preferred a 4 row, having no use for the 5th.

The early French CBA teachers were obliged to teach using three rows, with the 4th row and the thumb (always used on the outside row) being regarded as a sort of advanced technique.

Even today, more than a few French CBA players shun the 5th row, and a lot of them only have 4 row boxes.

I take everybody's point about making use of all 5 fingers across 5 rows, but some of us were discouraged from so doing in the books we studied.

Up here in Scotland the very idea of a 4 row instrument is very much an alien concept, and non use of the right thumb is punishable by banishment to styles other than Scottish Dance Music.

As I don't play Scottish music, them I'm just one of those weirdos with a stupid wee tinny sounding French box that has a missing row, and is played a silly way. That's about how PC things are up here, particularly against people who dare to go against the grain.

It doesn't bother me at all, and if I was honest I only need two fingers for my answer, both ascending and descending.

 

[dunlustin]

Can of worms:
My (22nd edition date unknown) Ferrero book says it is modernising and renumbering with thumb = #1 etc.
Confusingly it also has the older numbering ( Thumb = 0) and the PA fingering.
I think the fingering above has #1 = index (?)
In some books, the thumb is "p" for "pulgar" (or maybe "pouce") as in guitar.
Ferrero also says not to even move (let alone use ) the thumb for scales altho' it may be moved along the edge if the pupil's hand is really very small!
Around the same time it seems to be encouraged to have the hand parallel to the edge rather than at an angle - considered old fashioned.
I agree that, for me, the 5th row seems to offer less advantage than the 4th one.
In the past, the French have not been renowned for their teaching technique.
One of the things I like about CBA is that you do have more options as to where you pick the notes.

 

[Russ]

Thanks for the fingering maugein and for the comments dunlustin, I will practice these for a while just to add them to my options.

 

[Deleted member 48]

As I recall from some 1990s/2000s masterclasses, one by Friedrich Lips and one Alexander Dmitriev, in the Netherlands and in Belgium, different opinions on this topic exist also in Russia.
Lips and Dmitriev talked about CBA fingering and ergonomy on the bayan and accordion.
Friedrich Lips preferred starters first to learn all on 3 rows CBA in the first years of accordion school, without use of the 2 repeat rows. So children/starters are obliged to learn 3 different scales fingerings (1 for each of the 3 rows). Use of the 2 repeat rows being transferred to a later stadium of accordion study.
Alexander Dmitriev defended another opinion, preferring children/starters to use all 5 CBA rows as quick as possible, in an early stage of accordion study.

Anyhow, at a later stage of accordion study, repeat rows are very useful, because of the flexible solutions they can offer in more difficult music pieces, transposing scales/chords/... patterns.

Dmitriev's ideas on positional fingering on the CBA bayan are a first draft for a comprehensive and comparative study of fingering on the CBAs (both B-system and C-system).
An example, one of his C major scale fingering (on a C-system CBA !) examples is:
(c-d-e-f)+(g-a-b-c'), fingered as: (1-2-3-4)+(1-2-3-4)
He advises to play the a and c' notes on the first repeat row. There are 2 reasons why this example has advantages:
1) one identical "block" or "pattern" of fingering (1-2-3-4) is repeated. If you include the c' note, you have 4x2= 8 notes to be played for 1 octave. Dmitriev divises this in 2 blocks who are identical in shape and in fingering numbers. (look at a CBA keyboard drawing or picture, to view the identical "blocks")
2) the second advantage is , the thumb(=1) has only be moved once, you start with the thumb, and the thumb is used on the g (=2nd row on the C-system). In most C Major scales, the thumb is used 3 times. Dmitriev only uses the thumb 2 times, because he's aware the thumb is a little bit slower in reaction than the other fingers. I used this fingering for C Major, and indeed you can play faster.

The Russians also advise to take into account the accents in music, the time, meter.
Eg a piece in 6/8, fingering "blocks" eg (2-3-4)+(2-3-4) (again identical shape), or (1-2-3)+(1-2-3).
a piece in 4/4, blocks like (2-3-4-5)+(2-3-4-5) or another numbering.

Off course it also depends on the character of a music piece, each person must adapt the numbers/fingerings to his likes.

Basically, the Russians based their fingerings on early mathematical ideas, they look at the number of notes in a measure, how these notes can be divided in smaller numbers, or how to make 4 or 5 finger "block patterns" that can be repeated including repeat notes.
They look at the numbers in the meters, they look at the number of fingers you would want to use (5 or in some cases 4). Then they start thinking of what is the most ergonomical way to use these fingers.

Basic line is, fingering is not a solution for a problem in 1 measure, the solutions must be long(er) term, to be able to play the entire music piece at requested speed.
With fingering problems, think in entire musical phrases , and work out a good fingering for the entire musical phrase, until the next rest or pause in the music. Then you are able to lift up your right hand from the keyboard for a short moment, and you can start the next musical phrase.

 

[losthobos]

I'm interested to try Dimitiev's block approach, thankyou for these little pearls of wisdom.
Not quite on topic but maybe interesting, i knew an old boy who lived nearby who'd had his own big band back in the day which he fronted with a 5 row CDA made by Crucianelli...he said people were amazed that he could find his way round the vast keyboard and know where the notes were... then he let me in on his secret...Both outside rows were FAKE...he actually only had a 3 row box and had to learn all scales/chords etc in limited space.
Personally i find 4 rows enough as don't particularly like the stretch of getting to the 5th row, but open to any ideas so thanks for posting

 

[Anyanka]

Interesting that you find the fifth row a stretch - it's just a question of positioning. When using the top rows, my hand is right over the keyboard, with the index & middle finger tips over the top two rows, the thumb and little finger mainly operating the bottom two. For octave jumps, I prefer to use the low G on the top row and the high G on the 2nd row, for example, rather than playing 'sideways' as one would on a PA.

I do have fairly big hands and long fingers, though, which will make a difference. But by playing all 5 rows with all five fingers, I can keep my hand relaxed and not need to travel far around the keyboard.

I couldn't handle a 4-row - I've tried, but having a 3-row AND a 5-row is enough to keep me on the edge of chaos

 

[donn]

I've seen a few videos of an accomplished Swedish player who plays like that - B system - name mostly escapes me at the moment, but Odd something I believe. Hand poised over the keyboard. There's an orientation thing that I think goes along with it, I suspect: his fingers point somewhat downwards, so side to side finger movements are along the short angled rows. My fingers point a little more inwards, with side to side more along the long rows (as in, 3/4/5 row), and my hand (and thumb) is to the side, only the fingers are over the keyboard. So a 5th row would be a ways away - maybe not so much physically difficult, as I do have long fingers, but it's an extra reach if you don't really need it.

 

[Deleted member 48]

In our accordion school system, the thumb is always active on the CBA button board. The thumb is not resting on the side. So you never have a stretching problem with reaching the 4th and 5th rows or repeat rows. You freely move your hand slightly towards the repeat rows and the fingers are right in place over the 3rd, 4th and 5th rows.

Dmitriev told us to try to use the thumb passing under the ring finger (the 4th finger). That way you can frequently use sequences like 1234 and repeat them starting with the thumb (1).
French and Italian CBA tutors will allow the thumb to pass under the index and middle finger, but not really under the ring finger.
Dmitriev preferred to use all 4 or even 5 fingers in sequence before starting again with the first finger. But this depends off course of the number of notes that are together in a group. There is a close relationship between fingering and musical sense.
I read somewhere on the internet H. Neuhaus, a piano pedagogue, said the purpose of good fingering practices is not the ease/comfort/ergonomy of the player, but to try to make it sound as the composer intended.
My personal view is a combination, it has to be musical, but I also care for a certain player's comfort.