Roland FR-8x vs. Bugari EVO Haria P41

[Alan Sharkis]

Whoops! I meant P41, not P55 (which should be B55) No, I dont play button yet, but someday ...

So tell us how did the experience go and what were your impressions?

I had an opportunity to compare the Bugari EVO line with the Roland FR-8x at Petosa, the only EVO dealer in North America, located in Lynnwood, a suburb of Seattle, Washington. Petosa has been importing accordions of their design and badge made in the Zero Sette factory for many yeaers snd they are considered to be high-end accordions. Some of my findings agree with postings already made on this site, and others are my assessment based on this opportunity.

First, I compared the weight and balance of the instruments. The Bugari EVO is one pound lighter than the FR-8x, which is insignificant when playing the instruments, but might mean something when carrying them. Several people have already commented that the EVO balances better, and I agree. I also found out why. It has to do with battery placement. In the EVO, the battery pack actually extends into the bellows area, making it a better-balanced instrument. The EVO also has a less bulky appearance.

In addition, there are several trim levels available for the EVOs, and in each trim level above standard there are several choices of finish. The standard trim level contains only what Bugari calls, Silk Black, which roughly corresponds to a semi-gloss or eggshell finish as opposed to matte (flat) or high gloss in wall paint. Above this level is the Deluxe level, which contains sich finishes as Matte Black, Fire, Wooden, Aquamarine, Royal Blue, Royal Purple, and White. Then there is the Luxury level, which includes such finishes as Blue Sky, Dark Brown Matte, Dark Brown Silk, Ebony, Mahogany, Olea Silk, Olea Matte, and Titanium Silk. Not all the finishes exist in both piano and button models. I played the Wooden piano accordion, and there was a Mahogany button accordion on display. I found both finishes striking. There is a choice of two grille designs for each and every finish. Photos of all these finishes can be found at <URL url=petosa.com>petosa.com; fewer can be found at <URL url=bugarievo.com>bugarievo.com.

Tonally, the EVO sounded a lot less electronic than the FR-8x, and in my mind, this is a major advantage for the EVO, and probably a result of the quality wooden shell, which is made by Bugari. The dealer set both instruments to the same registration, but I have no idea whether he tweaked the FR-8x at all. More about that later.

I did not try the button model. I have no experience with chromatic button accordions. But working from the right hand side of the EVO to the left hand side, I can tell you this:

The piano keyboard EVO has wooden keys with lucite keytops, and real keyrods and pallets. When one or more keys are depressed, there is an accompanying air flow through the instrument. There is no stepper motor. Aside from this, the key feel is almost identical to that of the FR-8x; the additional key depth is a function of the need for aftertouch in both instruments. The EVOs keys are shaped and finished a little differently from those of the FR-8x, but I guess its a matter of individual experience as to whether this difference in key shaping helps, hinders, or is neutral in playing. The control layout on the treble grille for the EVO is like that of the FR-8x with one notable exception: the thumb drive port has been relocated to the back of the treble keyboard, underneath the backpad. Some may find this more esthetically pleasing, others might find it inconvenient.

Somehow, the bellows of the EVO seemed to respond better than those of the FR-8x. The dealer couldnt tell me why, and said that some customers didnt think it made a major difference.

Now, to the bass side of the instruments. Both the EVO and the FR-8x have the same bass mechanism, spacing, and somewhat clicky sound. The treble pallet mechanism in the EVO was not extended to the bass side, so playing the bass side does not involve the same air flow as the treble side.

Of course, there is a price difference. The EVO Standard level is higher than the price for which the FR-8x is currently selling, and the price goes up $500 for the DeLuxe series and $100 for the Luxury series. The EVOs chromatic button models are also $200 higher than the corresponding piano-accordion models, which is also true of the Roland V-Accordion series..

At present, the EVO cannot connect to the Roland V-Accordion editor or accept sound expansion sets, even though the computer USB port exists on the EVO. I guess that port is only there on the EVO so that OS updates can be done. The dealer told me that these restrictions were initiated by Roland when they licensed the electronics to Bugari. However, he thinks that this policy will be rescinded as early as this fall. He bases this on his knowledge of a current sharp drop in FR-8x sales.

Also at present, Roland service facilities will not service the EVO because it is a Bugari instrument, not a Roland instrument. However, the likelihood of either the EVO or the FR-8x needing service during the warranty period is very small. In this dealers experience, the only request for warranty service on a FR-8x came from someone who did a poor job of editing the bass, so that was not a Roland problem, but a user problem. Its somewhat ironic in my case. There is a Roland V-accordion dealer less than two hours away from where I live on Long Island, and a Bugari dealer who restricts himself to acoustic instruments about the same distance away. So, if I were to buy an EVO today, and in the rare event that it had a problem, my only choice would be to ship it back to Petosa.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I would not buy the EVO at present, but I would wait at least until the instrument can accept expansion sound sets and connect with and utilize the Roland V-Accordion editor. Meanwhile, Bugari seems to be so successful with the EVO line that they are developing their own electronics, but keeping very quiet about it.
Whether those developments will lead to smaller and lighter Bugari electronic accordions is unknown at this time.

So, I satisfied my curiosity about the EVO, but I leave it to all of you to decide whether its worth your while to find a dealer who sells both the EVO and the Roland FR-8x and then make your own comparison (and purchasing decision if you are so inclined.)

Alan

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Uhh, I meant to say that the EVO prices are $500 dollars above the "standard" level for the "deluxe" level and $1000 above the "standard" level for the "luxury" level.

Sorry about that.

Alan

 

[JerryPH]

Thanks Alan, you pretty much completely echoed the words we've heard before, though I had forgotten about the EVO's inability to use the editor... that alone is a huge detriment.

Oh and why would Petosa expect a huge drop in sales of the FR-8X in the near future? That alone is going to drive prices down on an 8X, and likely that is not going to happen... unless perhaps Roland releases the 9X and that will further destroy EVO sales!

Seems just what I thought before, that the EVO is not currently worth the price of admission. Sad... it does have potential and is a beautiful looking instrument.

I am glad I went the route of the 8X, it is giving me a LOT of pleasure (and I did pay a heck of a good price)! Also, who knows what the future will bring for either of these two, but I do sincerely hope that they both continue to evolve as competition is a good thing and there is a TON of room to grow and improve.

 

[Keymn]

Thanks Alan, you pretty much completely echoed the words weve heard before, though I had forgotten about the EVOs inability to use the editor... that alone is a huge detriment.

Oh and why would Petosa expect a huge drop in sales of the FR-8X in the near future? That alone is going to drive prices down on an 8X, and likely that is not going to happen... unless perhaps Roland releases the 9X and that will further destroy EVO sales!

Seems just what I thought before, that the EVO is not currently worth the price of admission. Sad... it does have potential and is a beautiful looking instrument.

I am glad I went the route of the 8X, it is giving me a LOT of pleasure (and I did pay a heck of a good price)! Also, who knows what the future will bring for either of these two, but I do sincerely hope that they both continue to evolve as competition is a good thing and there is a TON of room to grow and improve.

Like I said before, looking for wireless connectivity to iPad.

 

[Glenn]

Alan, if the EVO has no “stepper motor” as you call it, does that mean there is no such thing as bellows curves etc. on that instrument?

 

[Keymn]

Alan, if the EVO has no “stepper motor” as you call it, does that mean there is no such thing as bellows curves etc. on that instrument?

Glen, unclear of stepper motor usage?what models?

 

[Glenn]

Hi Alan,

You mention key rods and pallets so that air flow is natural depending on how many keys are pressed (ignoring whether a register has 1 to 5 of the LMMH switched in for the moment). Thus you note there is no stepper motor which I believe is the mechanism Roland use to open/close a valve to simulate air usage. Thus my question concerns how the EVO measures the pressure being exerted on the bellows and how it controls the response to that pressure? I’m sure it all works well as you say yourself that it does but I’m curious as to the clever mechanical differences.

 

[Keymn]

Isnt it less mechanical? more like the same concept of breath controller sensors in the digital sax? I am not an vaccordion technician...enlighten me on this?
http://www.roland.ca/products/aerophone_ae-10/

 

[Alan Sharkis]

JerryPH post_id=61745 time=1533595839 user_id=1475]

Oh and why would Petosa expect a huge drop in sales of the FR-8X in the near future? That alone is going to drive prices down on an 8X, and likely that is not going to happen... unless perhaps Roland releases the 9X and that will further destroy EVO sales!

Jerry,

That drop in FR-8x sales has already occurred and will probably continue. Face it; the FR-8x has been around several years already. Its a very flexible and versatile accordion, but most of the people who want one already have one. My teacher, who admits that the FR-8x is more capable than the FR-4x, has recently told me that if the 4x was released before the 8x, he wouldnt have bought the 8x, I think thats colored by the fact that he does strolling restaurant gigs and finds that hes much less tired using the 4x for those kinds of jobs than he was using the 8x. (By the way, he still uses his Petosa for jazz gigs.) But everyones experience will be somewhat different in that regard.

Alan</QUOTE>

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Thanks Alan, you pretty much completely echoed the words weve heard before, though I had forgotten about the EVOs inability to use the editor... that alone is a huge detriment.

Oh and why would Petosa expect a huge drop in sales of the FR-8X in the near future? That alone is going to drive prices down on an 8X, and likely that is not going to happen... unless perhaps Roland releases the 9X and that will further destroy EVO sales!

Seems just what I thought before, that the EVO is not currently worth the price of admission. Sad... it does have potential and is a beautiful looking instrument.

I am glad I went the route of the 8X, it is giving me a LOT of pleasure (and I did pay a heck of a good price)! Also, who knows what the future will bring for either of these two, but I do sincerely hope that they both continue to evolve as competition is a good thing and there is a TON of room to grow and improve.

Like I said before, looking for wireless connectivity to iPad.

Hello Keymn,

The hardware might exist already. I know that there are Bluetooth dongles for computers that plug into USB ports, and iPads have Bluetooth reception built in.. But where does that leave the software on the accordion side? Does it already exist, or will it have to wait for an OS upgrade? Roland, are you listening?

Alan

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Alan, if the EVO has no “stepper motor” as you call it, does that mean there is no such thing as bellows curves etc. on that instrument?

I didnt get into that. It was an oversight on my part.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Hi Alan,

You mention key rods and pallets so that air flow is natural depending on how many keys are pressed (ignoring whether a register has 1 to 5 of the LMMH switched in for the moment). Thus you note there is no stepper motor which I believe is the mechanism Roland use to open/close a valve to simulate air usage. Thus my question concerns how the EVO measures the pressure being exerted on the bellows and how it controls the response to that pressure? I’m sure it all works well as you say yourself that it does but I’m curious as to the clever mechanical differences.

I really dont know. It fascinates me too, but I didnt find out. But my experience with reedless and midi-accordions tells me that there are bellows pressure transducers that can send midi channel volume messages and/or analog signals corresponding to the bellows pressure. I also remember reading that Roland V-Accordions starting with the FR-7x (Please correct me if Im wrong ) had pressure transducers that could also detect bellows direction.

Alan

 

[Keymn]

I do have an fr7 service manual. I will look up what parts they use in bellow sensors. I do not think much was changed with these parts? I need a day to look at this.
I know the FR4x works with Bluetooth LE as in this article. I tested this, it works. Roland pianos have it built in...any new model is worthless to me unless this is a built in feature. It would sky rocket sales, I think. I can’t remember all those presets. Opening a song, leadsheet lyrics opens on iPad, sets up accordion preset and arranger at the same time. Not much interest in this for some reason in this area? I been using this system on my arranger for years. Never touch the arranger, the IPad sends the control/program message to proper register settings.

https://baumsoftware.freshdesk.com/...land-fr-4x-v-accordion-for-use-with-songbook-

 

[JerryPH]

Larry, you often talk about this and it is facinating, I am eating up your words everywhere you add info to this, and I have a big interest in this, but this thread is about the 8x vs EVO, my friend.

Concerning the stepper motor, unless I misunderstood, I think Bugari went the way of the FR-7x and used an adjustable air release button instead of the more effective stepper motor (that we can control via internal settings). Honestly both work, and that extra bit of bellows functionality realism doesn't mean all that much to me in terms of added or detracted value.

Oh, Alan, the internal word from Roland is "no 9X release until sales of the 8x drop...", and in fact the release of the EVO has spurred up continued 8X sales and actually delayed the release if the 9X, so I am wondering whose info is more accurate. It well indeed be slowing down, but nowhere near what Bugari/Petosa are hoping. They should be happy, else they would be busy trying to play catchup from 2 generations back instead of 1.

 

[Keymn]

Larry, you often talk about this and it is facinating, I am eating up your words everywhere you add info to this, and I have a big interest in this, but this thread is about the 8x vs EVO, my friend.

Concerning the stepper motor, unless I misunderstood, I think Bugari went the way of the FR-7x and used an adjustable air release button instead of the more effective stepper motor (that we can control via internal settings). Honestly both work, and that extra bit of bellows functionality realism doesnt mean all that much to me in terms of added or detracted value.

Jerry, do you think fr7x made big changes in the Bellows Control? what interests me is calibration of pressure sensors, page 45 fr7 service manual.
..I have some electronics training in this but. A little rusty. Started with vacuum tubes... :lol:
Check out this link...
http://servicerepairmanuals.net/others/roland/roland-fr-7-v-accordion-service-manual-notes/

 

[JerryPH]

Jerry, do you think fr7x made big changes in the Bellows Control? what interests me is calibration of pressure sensors, page 45 fr7 service manual.
..I have some electronics training in this but. A little rusty. Started with vacuum tubes... :lol:
Check out this link...
http://servicerepairmanuals.net/others/roland/roland-fr-7-v-accordion-service-manual-notes/

The link you provided wants to sell me the book for $4... Ill pass on it for now, but the man that would more than likely have the answer to your question is JimD, he is The Man when it comes to the innards of Roland V-accordions around here. I am going more from memory about the 7X and recall that it used an adjustable air release vs the stepper motor on the 8X that releases more air for every button pressed. Come to think of it, a part of the possible reasons the EVO is 1 lb lighter might be due to the absence of this item.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I like the different colors available. Something different to see on stage. I will be curious on the factory sound settings? Many critiqued them on early Roland models?

I love the looks of the EVO very much too, especially some of the premium styles... but if you close your eyes, you cannot tell apart the differences between an EVO and an 8X. Factory settings I was told by several people to be 100% the same, but I am a bit leary of, as I heard that the latest new expansion sets from Rolanddo not install on the EVO. They didnt change the factory sounds... but they might have changed *something* inside.

The one thing that I do absolutely love about my 8X is the Richard Noel sets. Not only do they totally transform the 8X up to the next level, they give TONS of ideas on ways you could make your own sounds. Id say that 90% of the time that I play, I am using a Richard Noel set, or one that I modified using his hard work as a starting point.

Here is a question... if you had a choice between a factory EVO and an 8X with all the Richard Noel sets, which would you choose? For me the answer is obvious... the 8X, but I bet not everyone would make that choice. What would you choose, nicer look or way better sound?

Hello Jerry,

Long time, no respond. But theres a newish thread about the EVO and somebody who previously had an 8x (he may still have it) and has been playing his new EVO for about two weeks, whereas I could barely spend an hour comparing the two. His opinion is very positive about the EVO for playability, sound quality, and weight distribution as compared with the 8x. My brief comparison told me pretty much the same thing. On the other hand, my informal survey now gives the edge to people who feel the thumb drives placement on the EVO is more of a problem than an aesthetic plus. When last I posted, the two sides were about even. So, I made some comments in response to his, generally agreeing with him on the three points I mentioned above.

On another topic, you seem to like the Richard Noel sets. Ive seen sets demod by, and produced by Dale Mathis as well, and I was wondering how you feel about those?

Alan

 

[JerryPH]

On another topic, you seem to like the Richard Noel sets. Ive seen sets demod by, and produced by Dale Mathis as well, and I was wondering how you feel about those?

Well, to start off, the Dale Mathis sets are not available anywhere at any price... except if you buy an 8X through him and the store he works through.

That said, as far as overall quality, Id still give the nod to the RIchard Noel sets. Not only does he have a lot more and varied sounds, hes spent more time developing his sets. I believe that Richard Noel has been around longer and has more experience with programming the Roland V-Accordions.

This is not to say that the Dale Mathis sounds are bad, because they *are* very nice. I still feel that the Noel sets are more general, with greater variety and versatility, and they make a better place to start off with, even if one could buy the Mathis sets at the same price.

 

[Keymn]

My FR4x sounded strange at first, but the EQ was set flat from the factory, that is the only negative I had. Adjusted it a bit and satisfied. But adjusted it with the speakers full volume to be sure no distortion
(Careful not to set the EQ gain too high). The Bugari Evo has a wooden box, correct? A whole new EQ concept unless it is already set to your liking. I’d be curious what the EQ settings are from factory.
Sounds like a box I would like to try. Although, I am skeptical about more weight on the chest. I have done a moving around show with my FR4x and I Became exhausted in about ten minutes, breathing hard. But of course I was singing at the same time, which I think made it tough.

 

[JerryPH]

I often play at full volume, never heard my 8X distort even with heavy/deep bass and drum effects, not even sure how I would do it on purpose, but I'd not want to of course... lol

As far as setting up the EQ, a LOT depends on intended use. For public playing ideally one needs a different EQ based on location for best sound and what ever PA or sound system they or you are using. When recording, one wants as flat an EQ as possible because we will be adjusting this in the mix. If you are just playing/practicing in the basement or other room in the house, adjust it to whatever settings sound best to your ears.